RuMR Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 actually pope, i was agreeing with you... I spent some time working on that stupid pencil sharpener of a route and concluded that i could never even hope to link the thing placing gear and even pinkpointing it wasn't going to happen cuz some holds and feet were gonna be plugged by gear...i was pretty sure i could link it on tr but what would be the point of that??? The straight up finish to city park after the jog-in-crack + 1/2 a body length is not "5.12"...its more like 5.11- and so finishing to godzilla would not affect the rating much IMO...leading the thing on preplaced gear or a real redpoint would be a significant deal though... I think more credit should go to Alan Watts...he damn near flashed the thing, placing his own gear, and was thwarted at the last really hard move by his own bleeding tip...you can say all you want regarding sport climbing, but that effort was, to this day, the best effort that route has seen or will likely see for a long time... Quote
TimL Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 This discussion is interesting. If the above story is true about Todd S, then it really sounds like he did not free the route. IMHO - If he did TR 90 feet of the route, then stepped to the right and finished on the 10c of GZ, he did not do the FFA route. There are many things that can happen on the last 15 "easy" feet. I know that I've been stymied on the last 15 feet of easy climbing on harder routes. City Park is an obvious line. It starts at the top of the bolt ladder and goes all the way to the chains. Stepping to the right is a variation. Climbng the first 90 feet on TR is not leading the route. I would say leading the route with gear in place is more aceptable then this. Given the rise in climbing standards, I would say the FFA is valid with the leader starting with the crack above the bolts and finishing on the direct line at the anchors, placing gear. Pretty simple. If Skinner or anybody else has yet to do this, then this is still an open project. It would be great to get his first hand account on exactly how he did it. It he really did free the route, then he should not have a problem in coming out and saying how he climbed it. Another question, has he ever written an account or a story about this climb or is all the information second hand? Things seem a little weird here. Quote
Dru Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 sounds like a classic yo-yo style, there would be a lot of other free routes from the 80's that aren't "free" if all of a sudden yo-yos are retroactively invalidated. Quote
chucK Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 Not that it makes much difference, but that mantle move is not Index 10c. You're holding onto a jug of a ledge, mantle up and quick slap a higher jug, then easily pull onto the ledge. It's more like 9+ or 10a at most. Of course, I've only climbed it by accessing via Godzilla. It could be 10c from City Park if the transition into it is difficult Quote
bigwalling Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 Dru... I total agree, same thing was going on with the zombie roof up there in squamish. Croft and others had yo-yoed. But I think Boyd claim first redpoint. Though city park is a bit hard than the roof. I don't really know why this is too important unless you can free this thing yourself. It's not like he fucked the route up. Someone go redpoint the bitch now! I doubt anyone on this site will be the one to do it but wtf do i know. I will say if Alan almost flashed it... that is fucking sick! There is a hell of a lot more to Index than city park. I hope your article will include a bunch more rather than focusing on this climb. Maybe as a free route it is fun.. but as an aid climb it is rather dull! There is some rad shit at Index, both aid and free. Aid wise when compared to Squamish for practicing, I think Index is quite a bit better. There is plenty of hard aid at Index to practice nailing and heading on. The climbs are all pretty clean too... squamish has more moss and shit. But ya back to the Park... Quote
TimL Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 Granted this is just my opinion, but a FFA yo-yoing is not valid. I would consider having the gear in place and clipping it on the way up better than yo-yo style. Consider Heinous Climb at Smith. I could clip all the bolts past the crux, come down and climb through everything on TR then clip the last bolt. Frankly, most of it is a TR rehearsal. In reality, I don't care how most people do their business, but to claim a FFA on something you did not do willingly thrusts yourself into the limelight. When you put yourself in that limeliht, then all is fair game, including your style. Quote
RuMR Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 no tim...back then the syle was yo-yo...in fact super crack was teamed yo yo style and the whole team is credited with a ffa...it wasn't until the german hulk came through that the concept of a rotpunkt started to apply... its all games and semantics anyhow...that's why i just laugh at poop/dwanus when they get their panties into a twist... are you in seattle presently?? Quote
matt_m Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 no tim...back then the syle was yo-yo...in fact super crack was teamed yo yo style and the whole team is credited with a ffa...it wasn't until the german hulk came through that the concept of a rotpunkt started to apply... its all games and semantics anyhow...that's why i just laugh at poop/dwanus when they get their panties into a twist... are you in seattle presently?? So true - a lot of people like to criticize things now, that, historically were not controversial. And vice versa - no one screams bloody murder when people hang and work a route now but back them - whoa boy. Yo Yoing was a "bridge" technique between the "you fall you lower and pull your rope" ethics of the earlier gens and the more modern "work it then lead it" style. Remember - hang-dogging was a term with negative connotations - nowadays, you mention that phrase at WWI and some people may not even know what you're talking about let alone consider it a critique. Quote
RuMR Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 ... I doubt anyone on this site will be the one to do it but wtf do i know. I will say if Alan almost flashed it... that is fucking sick! ... i'll put money on mike...and soon...also, to see alan climb in his heyday was something else...in thin cracks he was the machine... Quote
RuMR Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 i think even his detractors will say he did it w/ no falls... Quote
Mr._Natural Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 if you count the zilla finish, whatever. it will always be a1 to me. Quote
bobbyperu Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 i agree with rudy about mike...i was there this winter with him and he tr'd with 1 hang after a day of cragging, and he was solid thru the biz...on his feet, chalking up, just way focused, and sending... the next day we were out there, he's up on the thing placing his gear on lead, maxing out, and still fighting for it...it was a great sight, then a grunt, and he's winging thru the air. a valiant effort for sure. anyone know beth rodd-well..?tell her about it and we could see an onsight ascent. this line is so beautiful, and should see an ascent of the best style, and everyone else can tr, hang-dog, pink-point, yo-yo, aid, whatever...its hard to not be enchanted by the possibility if you dig cracks in granite. Quote
TimL Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 no tim...back then the syle was yo-yo...in fact super crack was teamed yo yo style and the whole team is credited with a ffa...it wasn't until the german hulk came through that the concept of a rotpunkt started to apply... its all games and semantics anyhow...that's why i just laugh at poop/dwanus when they get their panties into a twist... are you in seattle presently?? So very true. Check your PM's. Quote
Dru Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 so what about hugh herr did he yo yo, pink point or redpoint it? Quote
shapp Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 No, he aided it, Props to the guy, he is truely amazing!, but I don't know anyone that can get their foot into a half inch crack! Similar to drytooling and torking in an ice pick instead of using marginal tip jams. Quote
RuMR Posted March 17, 2005 Posted March 17, 2005 please feel free to borrow my chainsaw to remove your legs... Quote
Blake Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 ... I doubt anyone on this site will be the one to do it but wtf do i know. I will say if Alan almost flashed it... that is fucking sick! ... i'll put money on mike...and soon... Rumr Wins! Quote
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