Bolts at banks lk

[Paul_detrick]

I love to clip bolts, but the routes there seemed to me to be in poor style, bolts were placed right next to cracks, which were big enought for a #1 camalot. And not just on one route. Why would someone put bolts in like that after all that has been said on it? I think it needs to be looked at.

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul detrick:

I love to clip bolts, but the routes there seemed to me to be in poor style, bolts were placed right next to cracks, which were big enought for a #1 camalot. And not just on one route. Why would someone put bolts in like that after all that has been said on it? I think it needs to be looked at.

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Careful there, my friend. You're asking for a serious cyberspace ass-kicking. Somebody (cocky little fucker who works in a gym) will tell you that you're just dragging your feet, standing in the way of the ordained direction in which mountain sport is evolving, and all because you're a bitter, old "homo-has-been-us" who can't crank modern standards. You'll be reminded of greater environmental evils (Exxon oil slicks and such) which (apparently) justfiy the occasional bolt next to a #1 Camalot placment. You'll be called a "rock cop" and a "prick", as well as a number of other names that Lambone thinks are four-letter words.

 

Save yourself the grief. Just go up quietly one afternoon and pull them out.

[Lambone]

ummm, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that jkassidy. Bolt's next to cracks piss me off just as much as the next trad master. Perhaps you should spend some time getting to know the people you slander.

 

Paul,

If they are by good placements I say pull 'em, bad form. Where at?

[Fence_Sitter]

tiem to break out da 6 footer!

[Dru]

get Mitch's love bar out of the closet um I mean garage

[Retrosaurus]

I am gettin' hungry for love. All this talk of rightous bolt removal is makin' me horny.

Of course, none of the sinners are goin' to speak up and claim their prize.

[Off_White]

Shoot Mitch, I don't reckon it would be too hard to find out who did it, its not like there are that many people putting up routes at Banks. Start with Marty Bland, he'd probably know. Have a good conversation with the parties involved before you saddle up the posse again.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

How does everyone feel about placing a bolt next to a perfectly good chipped pocket?

[Dru]

Shotcrete the whole thing

[Lambone]

[Off_White]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

How does everyone feel about placing a bolt next to a perfectly good chipped pocket?

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I glad I wasn't drinking when I read that, I hate it when that stuff comes out my nose.

[Fence_Sitter]

CREEEEAAAKK...ping....oh fuck...hell yeah... jsut practicing.... bring on the luv bar...

[Lambone]

right on pindude

[mattp]

Like Lambone said: Thanks, Pindude. There is always hope that we can take a reasoned approach to this matter and that those on both or all sides of any debate about bolting at Banks Lake can participate, even if indirectly, in any such discussion. Are there bolts that should not have been placed or which should be removed? Perhaps. But lets get all the facts.

[wdietsch]

isn't it amazing what kind of details can be found by asking a few questions. I applaude all in this thread for "talking" and gathering some facts before passing judgement ... Rodney King would be proud

 

ps ... this is not a "pro-bolt" reply, I don't own a Hilti or a Bosch but I do own a crowbar or two

[Peter_Puget]

I agree. I first read this thread and thought Shit why the hell did he post that here Turns out it I was overly pessimistic.

 

By the way, I have only been there a few times but not all the rock is as funky as was made out in this thread.

 

PP

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Puget:

By the way, I have only been there a few times but not all the rock is as funky as was made out in this thread.

 

PP

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You're right, I might have made it seem worse than it is: there certainly are good routes and rock as well as the crumbly stuff. Overall the granite of Banks is less sound than Vantage's basalt. With all the choss, it's not necessarily a place for the uninitiated, but neither was Vantage before it was discovered and cleaned with ascents by multiple climbers. Banks has yet to see the hordes that descended on Frenchman Coulee once the first guide came out...that was pretty dramatic. But then again I don't think Banks Lake will ever be another Vantage due to drive time, the fact many of these routes will ALWAYS have suspect rock, they are more spread out, and people have to use their heads a little more to get around and find the good rock--even with a decent guide for all the routes in the area.

 

Obviously, we're climbing out there and having fun. While some of the rock scares the crap out of me, including some of the most recent new cracks I've done, there is plenty of fairly sound rock. The best is generally found on faces, which still requires lots of cleaning; the most funky rock seems to be around cracks and the features we normally seek out as trad lines. There are indeed some excellent, fairly sound cracks to climb out there, including 2- to 3-pitch routes right off the water on the west side of Highway Rock. Even though I hope Banks never turns into the same scene we have out at Vantage, I'm trying to be objective and open to you all in reporting about it. All in all, Banks is a fairly cool spot to spend a day or weekend, especially if you have never been there.

[klar404]

heh..heh Lambone said Tradmaster!What he mean?I no get.

[Paul_detrick]

Thanks Pinhead,(joking)Most of the routes I saw looked kool and I can't wait to try them, maybe this weekend, if all the ice is gone. Im glad to hear that people would be willing to change routes to make them more (careful) stylist. Like I said in my frist post I like to clip bolts. Maybe the routes I saw were changed after they were frist put up. So I would be willing to talk to you or anyone on which routes I think should be changed, I just don't like to see bolts one foot away from a good looking cam or nut placement.

[pindude]

I have been asked by one of the Banks Lake first ascensionists, Rick LaBelle, to provide to this thread his words about Banks Lake bolting. Due to internet-accessiblity and firewall issues at his only PC, which he has at a local school, he has not actually read the thread nor can he post to it directly. I verbally told him the gist of it, and he provided a message which I have copied below. Because Rick has not read this thread, it's appropriate I add my own words and preface his message.

 

I agree whole-heartedly bolts have no business next to protectable cracks. And at Banks Lake, I have not seen a bolt deliberately placed next to a protectable crack. But yes, at Banks there currently are bolts next to cracks. I was hoping they would be removed by the FA parties before there was any public notice--or internet-lynching as can potentially be the case here.

 

That said, developing new routes at Banks requires an extraordinary amount of work. The granite most of the routes are on at Banks is the poorest quality I've been on. It's nothing like the granite of the Sierra and Yosemite, nor does it compare to Leavenworth and what we have through most of the Cascades. I am not a geologist, but have been told this particular granite is very old--it lies underneath the basalt layer which makes up most of the Columbia gorge, and thus has gone through many geologic changes. Sometimes the rock is of such poor quality it's difficult to find even a good bolt placement. Tapping on the rock with a hammer reveals much of the rock to be fairly unsound--if you are developing routes out there, you must be able to adequately judge the quality of the rock where you are drilling. Another poster to this board I believe correctly identified the rock as granitic gneiss. While it varies around the lake, bottom line, it's very chossy and cannot be trusted, even on well-traveled, relatively clean routes. On established routes I always test each hold and I've learned to have at least a wire brush to continue to clean whatever I'm on.

 

I have helped to develop routes, on both cracks and faces, at Vantage, Banks Lake, and other areas around Spokane. The routes developed at Banks, outside of the quality of rock, are some of the dirtiest I've seen on the dry side of the Cascades--I've been able to appreciate this better over the past year. In addition to having to trundle tons of dangerous choss, rock is covered with large amounts of lichen and moss which which must be picked out and brushed off. All this work takes literally hours per route. Personally, I cannot take credit for any FAs at Banks, but I have spent many hours to help clean both the traditionally protected cracks and the faces there.

 

If you are headed out to Banks, bring a helmet, and while on lead have a wire brush and nut tool for cleaning. If you're bringing a crowbar, I hope you'll mostly be cleaning choss with it, and have intentions of putting in the work to put up a new route or two. If you do remove a bolt at Banks, make sure the surrounding rock is absolutely sound and capable of holding protection, the resultant hole is camouflaged properly, and the hanger returned to the first ascensionist if it is not to be placed right away on a new route out there.

 

From Rick LaBelle:

"Of the 100 climbs (125 pitches) currently finished at Banks Lake, I know of three that include 30 feet or more of "bolted cracks." Others have maybe 10 feet of bolted crack on an 80-foot climb of a bolted, blank face. This is not the equivalent of bolting the well-jointed granite of Leavenworth. The ancient stone at Banks is hollow in places, shot through with dikes, and often has the consistency of glued-together sand. Two of the bolted cracks were originally eroding dikes which, after much crowbar work, now resemble cracks, but whether they can be safely plugged with gear is a judgment call. On the north end of the northwest face of Highway Rock the original route, "Pas de Cheval," has a bolted crack. It was conceived as a bolted slab-and-ramp climb in 1997. After several seasons with a crowbar and wire brush, friends and I have removed hundreds of pounds of hardened moss, up to 8 inches thick, to reveal several solid but still dirty cracks. Once the wind and traffic remove more the detritus, I'll remove the bolts that gave us access to the area. If people are concerned about bolted cracks, that tells me that six years of labor with problematic stone are finally bearing fruit."

 

--------------------

Steve Reynolds

Spokane

[thelawgoddess]

thanks, pindude. interesting reading ...

[pindude]

Quick clarification: Re-reading Rick's message, he offers to remove any offending bolts. I don't mean to dishonor his message by suggesting anyone head out there to remove his bolts. It's a lot of work to do it right (I've removed a few myself in my time), and takes away from good climb time. While I realize I can't stop someone if they want to chop bolts (and in most cases I applaud it), I request that, at least at Banks Lake as far as Rick's FAs are concerned, you contact him first and have him do the work. Considering his current inaccessibility to cc.com, PM me and I will immediately pass it on. I'll let you know the outcome, and if it's not one of Rick's routes, will gladly let you know that too.

 

[ 11-05-2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]