Fromage Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 I took a pair of the new Grivel Monster leashless, um, "progression aids," up to BC this weekend and spent a couple days aiding my progression with them at Marble Canyon. One was leopard skin motif and the other might have been snakeskin, I couldn't really tell. The only other leashless tools I have climbed with are the BD Fusions (7 days) and Charlet Quark Ergos (2 days), so they are the basis for my comparison. My partner observed that the Monsters looked like seahorses, and to her comment I would add that they look like seahorses that have been run over by a steamroller. If you haven't seen one in three dimensions it is not apparent from some web pictures that the shafts are flat, solid pieces of steel, not hollow aluminum tubes. After warming up with my anachronistic leashed tools I took the Monsters for a run up Deeping Wall. The ice was a bit thin, variably plastic and brittle, and in steep early season conditions. Since the Monster's pick is 5mm thick, dwarfing even the beefy steel of most Black Diamond picks, I was a bit concerned about damaging the route. The Icefall Nazis can rest assured that the picks did not shatter the young, tender, thinly formed ice. In fact, I was surprised to find that the picks placed securely without shattering the ice- less fracturing occurred than with the 4mm BD picks I have used. There are lots of teeth on the Monster picks, and I found out which ones were useful and which are decorative. The teeth on the top of the pick's point got hung up on gear a few times and I couldn't figure out how they might be of use. The swing felt a bit weird. The weight distribution seemed uniform, giving the tool, sorry- progession aid, a neutral swing. The Monsters didn't have the snap of the Quark Ergos and didn't feel wobbly like the Fusions. The Monsters certainly felt lighter than either tool, and were pretty stable in the ice. The placements felt dampened, which was probably due to the properties of the steel shaft. Where Fusions and Ergos give you feedback on the quality of your placements through the vibrations transmitted through the shaft, I didn't get that as much from the Monsters. Not bad, not good, just different. They don't feel as good as a leashed pure ice tool, but they climb ice fairly well. The handle was comfy. At first I was skeptical of the riveted construction, but I have to say this is definitely the most comfortable grip of the leashless tools I have used. I have big hands, and find the grips of the Fusions and Ergos squash my fingers a bit. There is plenty of room on the grip, which allows for two hand positions. You can swing from the upper position, which gives ample support for your index finger as a rotation point, and for hooking you can shift your hand slightly to the lower position. The grip was relaxing and felt good to hang from. I also had a go at the bolted mixed route in the corner next to Deeping Wall. The Monsters were imressive on rock. The pick angle is pretty steep, and it hooked securely on the tiniest of edges. I was surprised by how stable they were. The shafts flexed a little side to side in torqued placements, which again was neither better nor worse than Fusions or Ergos, just different. It took me a lot longer to get pumped, the grips were that comfy. I didn't do anything too fancy with the Monsters, a few matches and switching tools. The flat shaft is no comparison to the ovalized shafts of BDs and Ergos when it comes to comfort matching/stacking hands. If I owned a set of Monsters I would make some modifications to improve the grip of the upper hand positions. They come with little plastic bumpers, but a home-made custom job with some sticky foam and grip tape would probably do better. At the end of the weekend I thought I liked the Monsters. They were great on rock, decent on ice, and had some clear advantages over the Ergos and Fusions. Plus they are cheap! At $125 each a pair costs $19 less than one Fusion. They may not be rated, but for dinking around on bolted steepitude they were pretty fun. If I had to sum up the Monster in a word, it would be fun. Grivel is definitely on to something good with this grip design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 What about the fact that you can't replace the pics? 125 is cheaper than a pair of rock shoes but at least you can resole rock shoes... At 5mm do you think you could snap the pic under normal wear and tear? I love my quark ergos but am thinking about a pair of these for pure drytooling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 What makes you think that you can't replace the picks? They are bolted on, not permanently attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromage Posted December 13, 2004 Author Share Posted December 13, 2004 The versions of the tools- damn, I keep saying that- the versions of the Monsters I used had a pick that bolted onto the shaft at three points. Just by looking at the setup it seems as though the picks will be replaceable. I don't think the pick will be easy to break. This is for at least two reasons: 1. When torquing on placements the shaft flexes a little, absorbing some of that force like a leaf spring 2. 5mm is a lot of forged steel If you have been drytooling on Ergos and haven't broken a pick on those (3mm) then you probably won't snap the Monsters. I suggest you demo them before buying since your impressions of how they work and feel could be different from mine. One more reason to go to the Ouray Ice Fest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) What makes you think that you can't replace the picks? They are bolted on, not permanently attached. Because at this point Grivel doesn't sell replacement picks. Read the blurp at the bottom: Head is not modular Edited December 13, 2004 by NOLSe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Fromage: I torqued/bent a 3mm pick on my ergos to the point that its unusable unless I develop a curve ball swing (didn't break it though). Since then I have switched to the 4mm quad picks... no problems yet except they have the sharpness of butter knives. I like the quad 4mm pick better as: - the first tooth is twice the length of the first tooth on the 3mm Petzl offering... hooks much nicer... less likely to pop off when you switch hands from lower to upper handle - the top of the pick sports mini teeth that skate less (compared to a pick that lacks these teeth) when one executes a stein pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 looks like the same grip as the racing wing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 What makes you think that you can't replace the picks? They are bolted on, not permanently attached. Because at this point Grivel doesn't sell replacement picks. Read the blurp at the bottom: Head is not modular I was actually thinking of buying a set of these tools until, I saw you can't chang out the picks. That sort of blows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 maybe they will change their mind and start produce the picks as demand increases, who know, by the look of the picture it looks like they could. The head looks modular to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_Husbands Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I came here for a poll. where is the damn poll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwalling Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 can I really get the monsters in that ad in the recent rock and ice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pu Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 The picks on the Monsters are replaceable and there have been rumblings about making a thinner water ice pick for these tools as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 The picks on the Monsters are replaceable and there have been rumblings about making a thinner water ice pick for these tools as well. Where did you hear that? They are advertised on grivelusa.com as unreplaceable (see my link above)... that would be sweet if they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC007 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I have heard the same..its all in the works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 The pick is obviously replacable physically. Just three allen bolts with nuts on the back. Guess you'll just have to wait for grivel to decide to sell them individually. When I picked up a pair the other day they felt good in my hand. like said above, they have a very neutral feel to the swing, but you can change that to a index-finger-rotation like swing by choking up on the lower grip. These tools feel way burly for their weight too. Be interested to tool around w/ them someday... maybe Grivel should sponsor an ice fest 'round these parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hey Dave, who has them in stock right now around Seattle? You say an icefest around Seattle, damn that would be funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 How 'bout a Progression-Fest ? Ping Twight on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 So I sent a letter to Grivel NA and they said, yes the picks are bolted onto to the tool, but they said "The ends of the bolts are peaned over. If picks were to offered separately for a user install my guess is that this would change to some kind of bolt/lock nut system. All speculation at the moment.". So I guess I am not getting a set anytime soon. It would be nice if the pick were replacable. I would probably go and pick myself up a set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 I get the feeling the Monsters are kind of this years testing of the waters and by the time you wear out the picks that come with them there will be an improved version that you will probably buy instead. Lots of churning in the ice tool market the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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