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Jarred_Jackman

Death at the Coulee

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I have witnessed a biner braking just like that one, it was an REI gold. The climber cliped a bolt with the snout hook on the hanger where the gate hooks in making an open gate and a leaver action.

His waist was two feet above the bolt. I heard a ping of the biner braking and he hit the deck, The man was on the climber's side that day ,he walked away a little shak'in, It was a short fall with a good landing.

My hard felt condolencens go out to friends and family.

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quote:

Originally posted by richard noggin:

I have witnessed a biner braking just like that one, it was an REI gold. The climber cliped a bolt with the snout
hook on the hanger
where the gate hooks in making an open gate and a lever action.

His waist was two feet above the bolt. I heard a ping of the biner braking...

This is one of the scenarios that we are considering. It would take only about 400 lbs to break a biner in the manner you describe. In this case, Göran's harness may have grabbed the biner's nose, or the biner may have inverted in the webbing loop of the draw hanging by the nose. We think both are unlikely, though not impossible.

 

We will try to deduce if that is the case, by pulling on some biners with the loop end of the #2 Camalot, while measuring the force applied. We will load it to 500lbs, look at the biner surface for wire markings, then keep increasing the load, until we score the surface of the fresh biner just like that biner that remained with the #2 Camalot. You see that biner has the patterns of the Camalot wire scored on it now!!! An indirect way, but it will tell us if this was a pull on the nose of the biner, or an open gate failure by the rope at the bottom of the biner, or a closed gate biner. We do not think that it was a closed gate failure from the fracture surface.

 

We have to think the test protocol through, and do it once to collect most data. We will touch base with other experts to make sure that we are on the right track...

 

More on this after the analysis later this week...

 

Erden.

 

[ 10-05-2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

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OK, here is a loser of a web site called EverestNews with their story on Göran. I included the story as it appears on their site today, 10/5/2002.

 

On 10/2/2002, I came across their version of the story, and I asked them to update it based on this very thread on CC.com. The response I got was not I will look, I will investigate, thank you for the suggestion... It was a dismissive, short and unprofessional response that had no interest to find the truth for the fallen. They have elected to not do due diligence, and they have kept the story as is.

 

The world media follows this very thread. If we all have any power at all, it is that the same media will police itself. In fact, I communicated with one Swedish newspaper that had a link to the EverestNews version of the story. I told the newspaper that EverestNews version had gross inaccuracies and asked that they pull the link. They did. They were professionals. They understood accuracy and honesty would get them more traffic, not speculation or BS.

 

It is also my hope that all of you who visit this site know someone with pull by six-degrees-of-seperation. Please keep an eye on everestnews.com, if they do not change their tact soon, the next phase of the "Göran Storm" should hit their shores full on. We should blow their shack to bits, and hit them where it hurts: their pocketbook.

 

I see altrec.com, Clearance Warehouse, Amazon.com, Patagonia in a quick scan of their Kropp page... The sponsors need to know. There must be more sponsors out there, we need to scour the pages of EverestNews site. The sponsors we do not know need to step forward if we do not contact them...

 

If you know anyone at these companies, please direct them to this thread.

 

Thank you.

 

Erden.

 

-----------------------------

The everestnews.com version still not updated 10/5/2002.

 

NEWSFLASH UPDATE 10/1/2002: Goran Kropp has died climbing. Various sources are reporting to EverestNews.com that Goran died climbing yesterday. Renata Chlumska, Goran's girlfriend, and the first Swedish woman to summit Everest, was not with him when the accident occurred.

 

Update: Goran Kropp, 35, died yesterday around 2:30 p.m. rock climbing at Frenchman Coulee's Sunshine Wall on Air Guitar (in Washington State). This is over by the Columbia River in Eastern Washington in Grant Co about six miles north of Vantage Washington. According to a climber who contacted EverestNews.com who was with Goran yesterday. There was 4 climbers including Goran climbing together. They had been climbing most of the day, when Goran was almost at the top of a single pitch climb he took a fall. No one actually saw him fall, but they saw him falling. He was killed on impact, hitting first on a rock ledge and then continued down to the ground. He was only wearing a simple bike helmet according to the climber [However, it appears this was a climbing helmet, just too much for it...]. Goran lived in Issaquah Washington just outside Seattle moving to the United States from Sweden 6 months ago with Renata Chlumska.

 

According to the climber, Goran meet the climbing friends on the internet. According to his new friend Goran did not space his anchors close enough together. So when Goran fell, the rope did not hold. One of the friends was also on the same rope as Goran but the other climber was only a few feet up near the only real anchor that held. One of the climbers went for help only 15 or so minutes away to a cell phone. Help arrived quickly, and one of the other climbers was treated for shock when help arrived. But Goran was gone... Goran was pronounced dead at the scene.

 

[ 10-05-2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

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One more thing

 

Let's learn and teach how to spell his name:

 

Göran Kropp

GÖRAN KROPP

 

Please note the umlauts on the o in Göran.

 

The best way to show our respect to a person is to learn how to spell their name, and how to correctly pronounce it. Göran was prounced as (yo-ron) read as one word, of course, with an r that sounded more like the r in spanish, or italian. Not as many rolls to the tounge, though... It was a prominent r, not the lame inaudible r that we have in English. Yo is the one in "Yo Baby!"

 

Try saying his name with that strong r, then say to yourself loudly: "Kropp on top!" with the same strong r. I guarantee you that you will be smiling [smile]

 

Now that you are smiling, would you please go back in this thread to your own postings and update them with Göran where you see your mistake?

 

Thanks,

 

Erden.

 

[ 10-05-2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

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What's the trick, do I have to pry off the colon key on my keyboard and re-install it sideways to make the umlaut?

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quote:

Originally posted by Off White:

What's the trick, do I have to pry off the colon key on my keyboard and re-install it sideways to make the umlaut?

Nah, just copy and paste from the above posting...

 

You can do it, you love the guy enough [Wink]

 

Erden.

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quote:

Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

I have a habit of occasionally clipping my qd through a 'biner on my cam sling, which means I have a 'biner through a 'biner. Any chance this might have happened? Would this significantly increase the chance of a 'biner breaking? It seems as though the chances of cross-loading would increase, and now that I think about it, I'm gonna stop doing this, but might there have been such an occurence here?

The cams that Göran used did not have webbing, or extra biner on them. He would clip the quickdraw right on the wire of the Camalot.

 

As for clipping a biner on a biner, I think that may be dangerous. Not so much for cross loading metal on metal, but more for increased risk of the gate opening when the system is loaded.

 

You see, we worry so much about the scenario of the gate opening against the rock, we clip the rope in certain well thought out ways. The direction of the clip into the pro and rope into the biner become crucial to have a reliable system. This is the amount of thinking that has to go into placements with links involving only one biner.

 

Now, cross clip biner into biner as you suggest. All of a sudden you have two biners at 90 degrees to each other exposing two gates to the rock. How do you mitigate the risks of the gate touching the rock and nudging open? I would think that the leader's job would be an order of magnitude harder, if not impossible, to figure out which direction to clip each pro...

 

I also vote that you should stop doing that, and clip your draw right into the webbing of the cam, next to the other biner that was on the cam.

 

Erden.

 

[ 10-05-2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

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Question:

 

Do they make generators small enough that they can be carried through the gap down to the King Pins on Sunshine Wall? Maybe we would have to find one that would be light enough to lower... If not, we may have to drive it to the base of the Sunshine Wall, then bring it up the talus field somehow.

 

I have a Dremel tool, and I can finish the memorial project with some help. I feel that is more appropriate than paying someone to do it for us.

 

If anyone has any ideas on the generator, please contact me. I will stop by a tool rental place to see my options. Then depending on the size involved for the generator, I will seek your help as we may have to gang up on the darn generator!

 

Erden.

 

[ 10-05-2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

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quote:

Originally posted by erden:

Do they make generators small enough that they can be carried through the gap down to the King Pins on Sunshine Wall?


Erden, short answer: yes.

 

Last year with a group of about 4-5, we carried in a gas generator to Palouse Falls to run a couple angle grinders and erase some graffiti. Two had to carry at a time. We took turns, and carried about the same distance you would to carry through the gap to Sunshine Wall, as we carried past the small climbing area to just above Palouse Falls itself. I will get more info (size, make, model, etc.) from my friend who supplied the generator from his workplace, but may not get an answer til Monday. I'll pm you.

 

Cheers for all you're doing.

 

--Steve in Spokane

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quote:

Originally posted by pindude:

quote:

Originally posted by erden:

Do they make generators small enough that they can be carried through the gap down to the King Pins on Sunshine Wall?


Erden, short answer: yes.

 

Last year with a group of about 4-5, we carried in a gas generator to Palouse Falls to run a couple angle grinders and erase some graffiti. Two had to carry at a time. We took turns, and carried about the same distance you would to carry through the gap to Sunshine Wall, as we carried past the small climbing area to just above Palouse Falls itself. I will get more info (size, make, model, etc.) from my friend who supplied the generator from his workplace, but may not get an answer til Monday. I'll pm you.

 

Cheers for all you're doing.

 

--Steve in Spokane

I knew it, CC.com rocks [rockband]

 

Let me know, and if anyone has a better idea, speak now or hold your breath forever [smile]

 

Erden.

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Erden & others:

 

I agree that everestness.com sucks for not updating/editing their story based on your input. My god...you were the one belaying him. Not to mention that their writing sucks out loud. I mean just read the article.

 

For example:

 

"According to a climber who contacted EverestNews.com who was with Goran yesterday."

 

Is that a sentence? No. Come on according to a climber what? God damn if you are going to post an article on a commercial site I would at least expect it to be grammatically correct. (Whatever the language).

 

Next Sentence:

 

"There was 4 climbers including Goran climbing together."

 

Oh, was there? The nuns would have beaten my knuckles raw for that one. God damn, what piss poor language. If it was just a post on this site (or like site) fine. But a commercial site?

 

Sorry about the rant. I just cannot believe they treated you like they did when they were so screwed up, both factually and grammatically.

 

I never knew him. But I think it is safe for me to say that the climbing community will miss him.

 

Cheers and beers to the man and his life!!! [big Drink]

 

[ 10-06-2002, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

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I haven't had the chance to read through a lot of the recent posts on this thread but I did read the what was posted on everestnews.com and it seemed very inaccurate to what has been posted here.

 

I don't want to thread creep here but here is something that I was curious about. I was looking at various local news sources including some climbing websites to see what "news" they had about the accident. In two of the three articles I found they had taken the text directly off this site without referencing the actual source. Now I'm not bent out of shape out of this, but aren't they supposed to do that?

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quote:

Originally posted by jon:

I don't want to thread creep here but here is something that I was curious about. I was looking at various local news sources including some climbing websites to see what "news" they had about the accident. In two of the three articles I found they had taken the text directly off this site without referencing the actual source. Now I'm not bent out of shape out of this, but aren't they supposed to do that?

Actually, when the US media started wondering, I let Ryan Hayter, Göran's PR guy and his good friend, handle the media inquiries, so that I could get busy with the accident report, and my own grieving.

 

I understand that my accident report first went to the family and to Renata, and I did not post here until I was given the go ahead by Ryan. We had to time it right. It is also my understanding that the same accident report that you see on page 2, without the 10/2/2002 update was then circulated to the media, especially to Outside Magazine, since they had just communicated with Göran (if my account of the events is incorrect, Ryan will let me know...)

 

So, they were referring to my accident report primarily, and they were also made aware of this thread. This may explain the common themes in their reporting.

 

Expect more common themes after the complete accident report comes out. We can perhaps request that they mention cascadeclimbers.com specifically ???

 

I hope this helps.

 

Erden.

 

[ 10-06-2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: erden ]

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Hey no worries my friend it was just an interesting observation and I suspected just that.

 

Erden you strength is contagious, stay strong brother, and for gods sake get some sleep. [Wink]

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This past summer a friend and I from highschool, inspired by GÖRANS bike, biked to Golden ears from my home in White Rock hiked it and biked home. Now it was only about 100km bike each way but we kept saying how we were going to be GÖRAN KROPP [Cool] . Even since last year I have been planning to do a bike trip to Logan "KROPP STYLE"! I think i'll call our Mckinley team "KROPP on top". GÖRANS the man [rockband]

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quote:

Originally posted by salbrecher:

This past summer a friend and I from highschool, inspired by GÖRANS bike, biked to Golden ears from my home in White Rock hiked it and biked home. Now it was only about 100km bike each way but we kept saying how we were going to be GÖRAN KROPP
[Cool]
. Even since last year I have been planning to do a bike trip to Logan "KROPP STYLE"! I think i'll call our Mckinley team "KROPP on top". GÖRANS the man
[rockband]

I agree it was a "KROPP STYLE" trip! Hats off to you for doing it...

 

Now you have to "Göran Size" that, and go on a longer trip.

 

Come here and we will go from Seattle on the Cascade Loop with our bikes, carrying all of our climbing gear with us. We will do the Liberty Bell and other climbs at the Washington Pass, then continue on around back to Seattle. Maybe a group of the cc.commers can join us and we can have a party all the way [rockband]

 

Whatchasay?

 

Erden.

 

[ 10-06-2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

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I am a safety professional (at OSHA) who started climbing in 1974. Last year I wrote a book focused on climbing safety entitled "Ultrasafe." The impetus was to help stem the tide of climbing injuries/deaths. Like many other climbers, I am greatly saddened by Göran Kropp's death. I saw him a few years ago, and like everyone, I was taken by his ambition, humor, and vitality.

 

I would like to add my thoughts to the discussion:

 

(1) It is reasonable to expect a lot of discussion over someone's tragic death. Discussion is part of grieving, and everytime someone we know dies, people grieve. I have known about 30 or so adventure sportsmen who have died, and to one extent or another, I mull over each death---the fairness/unfairness of it--the circumstances--the merit of the person's life. I applaud the use of the internet boards as part of the grieving process. Every posting I have seen, so far, on this death, has shown a level of sympathy and care. The few stray marks presumably were made in haste.

(2) Carabiners have always broken---I recall in the 1980s Salewa introduced--then recalled---"hollow" biners. They broke. The prototype aluminum biner itself, the "Eiger," was a recall. My suggestion is that everyone should double biner (with opposed and reversed gates) or use lockers at critical points in the lead chain. Same for gear---double-up placements near cruxes and before run-outs. It may turn out to be true that the wire-gate phenomenom is best suited to sport climbs.

(3) Cams are great--but they are not a substitute for passive gear like stoppers and hexes. Cams walk, and they are much more dependent on rock quality than nuts. Everyone should climb with and use hexes and stoppers interspersed with their cams.

(4) We don't talk enough. Don't assume belayers are always 100% at attention. A gentle "watch me" at a crux, or in a long run-out, is always appropriate. (This comment in no way is intended to infer something about Göran Kropp's accident. I have no direct knowledge of, and I do not assume anything about it.)

 

George Allen

author of "Ultrasafe-A Guide to Safer Rock Climbing"

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The next route I put up with a big approach, I will call Kropp Circle. [laf] Kropp On Top!

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erden....... i dont know what sort of memorial you have in mind but i've been an artist and graphic designer for many years with a pretty strong knowledge of typography and design....... I'd be glad to help if your schedule works.

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Erden: following is my thoughts based on 29 years of climbing. I hope you look at this factor as no one has mentioned it and in my view the most likely factor of this accident.

 

It was the rock.

 

The rock moved.

 

It was not the rope. There was plenty of rope out for a dymanic belay.

 

It was not the pro. The pro was good.

 

It was the rock.

 

It moved.

 

This is my belief.

 

I have several things to say. First: Erden, it sounds like to me that you have done a fantastic job, before during and after. You, and the others who are seeking answers must be providing some comfort to Göran friends and relatives who undoubtedly are feeling beyond terrible over this event. I also want to take a moment to recognise Paul for helping with the process and not simply bootying the pro. Good job to all of you guys looking for answers. I know if there was anything any of us could do for the friends and relatives so far away to ease their pain - we would do it.

If I may take a momemt to clarify how many pieces pulled: Göran pulled out 3 of the 4 cams he had in, a #3 red TCU, a #1 red Camalot, and a #3 blue Camalot. 2nd time you add a #2 yellow Camalot to the 3 listed above, it was the second piece he fell onto, the one "where the carabiner broke, that did its job and stayed in the crack." There is a lot of focus on the broken carabiner, but if I understand this, 1 cam pulled out, then the carabiner broke, than 2 MORE cams pulled out????? I find it suspect that even 2 cams could pull, let alone 3. I am surprised no one else questions this.

 

If there is anybody out there who has seen somebody fall and even rip out 2 cams: let that person step forward. When I was guiding, I once lowered off 2 outward bound instructors who had fallen a full ropelength (and died) onto 1 single #2 ridged stem friend that was partially seated in a shallow, rotten seam. I could not see what was holding it in when myself and another guide climbed above them, and we expected it to pop at anytime. Their total weight was @ 300 lbs and they fell approx 150 feet of vertical fatally striking 1 ledge @ 100 foot down. The strength of camming devices is very high. After backing it up, we used that piece to lower them off. Cams also put an incredible force outwards as they are pulled out. I wonder if the column may have actually moved with the sideway forces the cams undoubedly exerted on it. Perhaps some of the engineering inclined up your way could go out to air guitar and check this out. There could be a couple of ways to figure this out, but duplicating the exact force by using a cam would be difficult. One easy way would be to set up a toprope and nail up it. If you can reach below and pull out the last pin that you had smacked in with your fingers: voila, it's an expanding "flake" or column. I normally don't advocate using pitons: but if it is done only once, and can perhaps save another life.....I wholeheartedly encourage it. I don't agree with Mr Chips that we should all just forget persuing the reasons why this may have happened. If the answer is a rational one and it prevents anothers death then we need more speculation, not less. I do not believe that Göran put in 3 or 4 poorly placed cams. It is not believable. I have seen them hold too many times. I could understand 1 cam pulling out, that would be a bad placement. 2, ahhh, maybe, but most likely not possible on a straight up vertical nice to pro crack. 3???? Nahhh. Nope. I would not think bad pro in this instance, I would be thinking moving rock more likely.

 

Lastly: awhile back I was involved in a similar accident at Smith Rocks. We were the only group other than a group of young Canadiens eating at Rudy's mexican place that AM. They were real nice folks, light hearted and we talked with them some over breakfast. No one imagined that within a few hours the young man would auger in from 70 feet up pulling 4 of the 7 nuts he had in (we were on the next route over, but almost 150 feet straight above them at the time). He had followed the route the previous day. On lead, he had gotten tired and fallen about 6 feet onto a piece that held but later pulled. In this tired state, he climbed straight up- off route- instead of to the right where he would have been on route and could have put in more pro. The crack got thin and virtually disappeared as he went up. He fell. The metal clanged and it wounded like a sack of potatoes had smacked hard from up high. We immediatly rapped off to assist.

 

The sounds of his girlfriend screaming and his friends sobbing, and the smell of his breath while unsuccessfully giving mouth to mouth while my friend tried CPR have not left me to this day. Nor will they I suspect. It's been almost 16 years now.

 

High regards Erden:

 

Bill

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quote:

Originally posted by DavidW:

erden....... i dont know what sort of memorial you have in mind but i've been an artist and graphic designer for many years with a pretty strong knowledge of typography and design....... I'd be glad to help if your schedule works.

I appreciate the offer. I will be happy to hear your input.

 

Maybe we can have a polished granite memorial by the parking lot, by the bulletin board that has his name, and with room to add more, God forbid ! A morbid thought, but it would be nice to do that much like the firemen's memorials are, where all names are chronologically captured.

 

Let me just say that I have the approval of the family and of Renata on what has been done at the base of the climb so far, with their desire echoing mine that it becomes permanent, and not wash off.

 

All I had in mind was to enhance the lettering on the words that I already etched on the rock at the base of Air Guitar. Nothing any more complicated. Perhaps the simpler the better for the man.

 

My thought was to bring a gas generator as suggested earlier to the base of Air Guitar, then work with a Dremel tool to simply enhance the lettering 1/8" (?) so it would not wash off. This would be better than a hammer drill since the rock has some layers close to the surface, and we can get it done with a Dremel without breaking or chipping it...

 

I am told by John Crock that we should gain approval from Robert Kent, the land manager for the FC area before any kind of more permanent memorial is done - this may also include enhancing the lettering. We are working on this and we will know soon.

 

Erden.

 

[ 10-07-2002, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: erden ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Dru:

The next route I put up with a big approach, I will call Kropp Circle.
[laf]
Kropp On Top!

I love it, it rocks [rockband]

 

Erden.

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quote:

Originally posted by erden:

quote:

Originally posted by salbrecher:

This past summer a friend and I from highschool, inspired by GÖRANS bike, biked to Golden ears from my home in White Rock hiked it and biked home. Now it was only about 100km bike each way but we kept saying how we were going to be GÖRAN KROPP
[Cool]
. Even since last year I have been planning to do a bike trip to Logan "KROPP STYLE"! I think i'll call our Mckinley team "KROPP on top". GÖRANS the man
[rockband]

I agree it was a "KROPP STYLE" trip! Hats off to you for doing it...

 

Now you have to "Göran Size" that, and go on a longer trip.

 

Come here and we will go from Seattle on the Cascade Loop with our bikes, carrying all of our climbing gear with us. We will do the Liberty Bell and other climbs at the Washington Pass, then continue on around back to Seattle. Maybe a group of the cc.commers can join us and we can have a party all the way
[rockband]

 

Whatchasay?

 

Erden.

Sounds painful.... I'm in!

[rockband]

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