Same side or opposing??

[SnowByrd]

I've just had a lively discussion with a friend on the proper way to orient biners on a quick draw for Sport Routes.

 

If you go to REI, and pick up a sport draw, the biners are facing the same way. BD's for example.

 

1) Said friend says that gear manufacturers are now saying that it is dangerous to oppose the draws. Is there any evidence to support this?

 

2) Climbing Gear girl at REI (been climbing for 13 years) says they are set up wrong. They should be opposing.

 

3) Everyone else I've spoken to says they should be opposing.

 

So what's the scoop? And most importantly...WHY?

[ken4ord]

Same side for no particular reason.

[scott_harpell]

Doesn't matter.

[RuMR]

Thizziz a personal opinion type of thing...BUT theoretically one can lever off a biner by rotating it over the hanger and then loading it...the old style metolius ring bolts were particularly prone to this...

 

I personally have them going opposite of each other...

[Dru]

i have some each way, it all depends...

[backcountrydog]

same way, for sport draws (which on my rack are shorter style) for 1 big reason. if opposed, when the draw 'follows' the rope, the gate of the biner on the hanger can be opened by the bolt.

[Matt_Anderson]

OhmyGoddoesanyoneactuallythinkthismatters?youallarejustmakingupthingstoworryabout

[Rafael_H]

Backcountrydog, what if you give a scenario for this, please?

 

I can see it happen if several things all happen at once. And I think the real-life probability of the same circustances making the same-way oriented draw to fail is the same as in opposing-oriented draw case.

 

I use same-way only because it is easier to know which way to clip more intuitively, without extra thinking. Any actual tests to reproduce the "failure" with some degree of consistency?

[tomtom]

It depends.

[backcountrydog]

rafael

the scenario i am describing is the bottom of the 2 pictures in tomtom's link. it is very easy to duplicate if you have a bolt and a draw right in front of you.

[Dr_Crash]

I believe that they should be on the same side for the reason backcountrydog mentionned. Manufacturers also mention the possibility of the gate becoming trapped in the bolt hanger and breaking. Not a good thing.

 

Omega Pacific apparently believes differently from what other manufacturers (BD, Petzl, etc.) do and sell their quickdraws with opposed gates. Their reason is to try to minimize the chance of *both* carabiners' gates opening in a fall as they reorient themselves during the fall and could get nudged open on chickenheads, knobs, and other features.

 

I'll personnally stick to what Petzl and BD and so many others do, for a reason I believe is better than OP's (which one can deal with by using different lengths for quickdraws).

 

drC

[catbirdseat]

As it says in the BD blurb, you can always rotate the top biner.

[ken4ord]

It doesn't matter what whether you have the biners opposed or the same side. In the examples that tomtom post what is critical is the side of the hanger you clipped into and the direction of travel, not whether you have your biners alligned or opposed. Even then you have to let the tension off really quick to have the biner release from the bolt, in most cases the biner will close staying on the bolt. And as Catbird mentioned if you are ultra paranoid rotate your top biner and drive your second crazy. I know, I used to do that and when my second would come up to to it they were like WTF. What you need to be more worried about is backclipping not the orientation of your biners.

[Dr_Crash]

Rotate your top biner, as in make the gate face down?

 

drC

[RuMR]

ken's right...it is unlikely to ever happen...

[Dr_Crash]

Maybe we should reinterpret her "same side or opposing" question as "spooning or embracing?" Just to get new fodder. I know there are strong opinions there too .

 

drC

[ken4ord]

Rotate your top biner, as in make the gate face down?

 

drC

 

Yes, Clip rotate the biner to make the the gate opening be away from the hanger.

[Rafael_H]

BCD, give me some credit, man

 

It is a no-brainer to repro with a bolt in one hand and a q-draw in another, why would I ask for an example of such an obvious case?

 

If you look at a real-life scenarios, through the years of your climbing career, you would most likely come to the conclusion that having draws only one way or another does not make a difference. If circumstances are right, the unclipping could happen in both cases.

 

I am sure this has happened, but what is the likelyhood? That's the scenario I was asking for, from your experience, not just speculatively. Slabs, overhangs, vertical, change of direction that should happen, climbing or clipping, etc. are the things that are going to affect the unclipping.

 

I say this "concern" is negligible, that's my point.

[iain]

this is just friggen fascinating.

[Dru]

"Here comes the Thnikkaman!"

[TimL]

OhmyGoddoesanyoneactuallythinkthismatters?youallarejustmakingupthingstoworryabout

 

I agree

 

I think I would worry more about the crag falling down on top of me while climbing then my qd coming unclipped from the bolt.

[TimL]

Edited November 2, 2004 by TimL

[catbirdseat]

I can't believe no one has brought up the subject of Dog-Bone draws yet.

[glacier]

I'm mostly concerned with "Do my draws match my harness?"

[Marc]

I think most of us agree that the gate of the lower biner should face away from the direction of the climber's travel, i.e., if I am ascending up and left, the gate of the lower biner should face to the right.

 

The worry I have is when I must traverse first one way and then the other in difficult terrain before making the next clip, thus not knowing for sure on which side of the lower biner I might fall. The other consideration is the top biner unclipping from the hanger as illustrated on the Climerware website. Most of the time this is not a big deal, and on most routes I don't give my clips a second thought after I decide which way to orient them.

 

But most of us have been in situations where the rope must stay clipped or the results would be grim. My solution to this is to simply use two quickdraws, gates opposed. On the hanger end one carabiner points left and one to the right. Ditto for the rope end biners. I have seen no data to indicate this is a dangerous practice. The one concern I have would be extra stresses to the hanger-end biners, but they seem to nest pretty well.

 

Anyway, that's my $.02