Single fat ropes for ice?

[Jens]

After exclusively using twins or doubles on waterfall ice for a while, I'm thinking of going back to a single fatter rope (10.5ish or even 11mm) rope for ice.

*The rope drag on ice (friction is almost non existent)

* Waterfalls meander less than rock routes and are more likely to be plumb lines (pillars etc)- negates 2 rope advantage

* Easier to make desperate clips with a single

*Easier to clip with gloves

*Easier to belay with mitts or fat gloves

* Less rope to get tangled up with

* I hate TRing with a single skinny line (long pitches)

* a 10.5 mm or even a 11 gives you lots of cut protection

* A lot of the newer routes blur the line between mixed and ice and nobody seems to be using twins or doubles for hard mixed these days

* A lot of our local ice has a walkoff instead of a long rap off.

* most of us use screamers on our screws so the impact force argument isn't quite as relevent.

* More of the bad asses are sending with singles these days.

_

I just read Will Gadd's book, and it sounds like he has switched back to a single for ice.

-----

What I don't get is that the industry is pushing the idea that the single 9.4mmish ropes are great for waterfall ice. I think they represent the worst -no cut resistence from a crampon or ice tool -

best- single fatty?

2n place- light doubles?

3rd twins?

4th- super skinny single sport lines?

----

granted, doubles and twins are certainly better for certain climbs. we all have our own opinions.

Any thoughts anyone?

[fern]

I think 11mm is probably overkill. Get it wet and iced and good luck loading it into most modern belay devices. I rapped synchronicity on two fat singles like that and I had to run face down psuedo-aussie style to get the frozen ropes through my device.

 

Have crampons and tools REALLY been demonstrated to cut ropes in a catastrophic sense, in a practical scenario? I.e. Spearing the rope with a pick or front point leads to the rope parting then and there? Most likely scenario to me is that you accidentally pierce the rope with a tool, it doesn't break though at worst gets a core shot or bad sheath damage, so you just chop that section off. If damage is from tools then it is necessarily close to your tie-in.

 

Wasn't there a UIAA test recently (last 2 yrs) where they stomped all over ropes and crampons and determined that the ropes were not damaged to any level requiring immediate retirement?

 

edit to add link: ACC safety articles

 

following my own logic I conclude that the best choice is a longish single skinnyish rope.

[Jens]

That would be pretty cool to see the UIAA test about dancing on some ropes on the ground with crampons and then testing them.

 

As for tools/ crampons cutting ropes I'm a scaredy cat.

(spoken from a guy who has swung through one cord and also taken 2 leader falls on screws).

[John Frieh]

Good discussion. A few things:

 

The UIAA recently suspended the sharp edge test due to inconsistencies between testing facilities (a rope would pass at one lab but not another). I doubt you could come up with a reproducible test that could definitively tell you how many times you could kick your rope before you had to retire it (and even if you did how many of us have partners that at the arrival of the belay report how many times they accidentally front pointed on your rope?)… A lot of the UIAA tests are BS anyways… case in point the ice screw test and the ice ax/tool… stupid! I think a healthy does of GRC (gross reality check) with ropes (or any piece of equipment) is all you need.

 

I doubt you would completely severe a rope with a misplaced swing (though more likely with a skinny rope) though if I looked up to see my pick placed through my rope I would be much more likely to freak out on lead and then take a fall on a damaged rope.

 

As far as the sheath goes some companies are currently weaving portions of the core into the sheath to decrease the amount of material needed to construct a rope… though this makes for a lighter rope it also makes for a smaller sheath. On the flip side I know at least Yates is making ropes (or having blue water make ropes to their specs) with fatter sheaths… they originally hoped to target aid climbers/big wallers but found that the rope appealed to everyone tried of replacing a rope in 6 months to a year due to general wear and tear. At the end of the day I would say unless they are weaving in chain mail no sheath is going to stand out as more resistant to errant placed tools. And WRT rope diameters… anything bigger than 10.2 mm is for aid or cragging (at least for me).

 

As far as clipping: a pair of twins will clip easier than a pair of halfs (twins: both ropes through each point of pro) but granted no as easy as a single... but with detachable leashes these days how hard can it be to clip two lines through a biner? And yes you have to be vigilant policing potential rope tanglements… but based on your original question you said single pitch only so… untangling ropes on the ground isn’t that suck (at least compared to a hanging belay).

 

Looking at your list I would rank for single pitch plum line water ice with or without mixed sections as follows:

 

1) 9.7ish-10.2ish mm 70 m single line (it will be a 60 sooner or later anyways). Go bigger diameter if you like to log a lot of fall time or intend to dry tool a bunch (lots of hanging, etc). Smaller if you are the new ice version Sendbot.

2) pair of twins (the smaller the better… beal makes 7.7! This is what I use.)

3) pair of halfs (you should own a pair for alpine routes anyways)

 

And if you are mixed crag climbing I think a single is the only way to go.

[cicleclimb]

Sorry to thread drift but . . . I've been considering getting a pair of half ropes for alpine/ice for conveinience of rappel and weight (i.e. using only one for simple glacier travel). But a few questions come to mind: (1) if you're only clipping one rope at a time, and therefore falling on one rope at a time, technically shouldn't one rope be able to hold a fall. (2) Isn't clipping one rope of a half easier than two twins? (3)Also, is it remiss to clip both half ropes to a biner (negate impact force benefit or something)? It seems that if you're running it out - as most of us seem to do on ice - you would want both ropes running through the draw.

[Alasdair]

I think 11mm is probably overkill. Get it wet and iced and good luck loading it into most modern belay devices. I rapped synchronicity on two fat singles like that and I had to run face down psuedo-aussie style to get the frozen ropes through my device.

 

Have crampons and tools REALLY been demonstrated to cut ropes in a catastrophic sense, in a practical scenario? I.e. Spearing the rope with a pick or front point leads to the rope parting then and there? Most likely scenario to me is that you accidentally pierce the rope with a tool, it doesn't break though at worst gets a core shot or bad sheath damage, so you just chop that section off. If damage is from tools then it is necessarily close to your tie-in.

 

Wasn't there a UIAA test recently (last 2 yrs) where they stomped all over ropes and crampons and determined that the ropes were not damaged to any level requiring immediate retirement?

 

edit to add link: ACC safety articles

 

following my own logic I conclude that the best choice is a longish single skinnyish rope.

There is a study from the BMC that was published a few years ago that says in short "ropes dont break" even when stood on by crampons, and speared with picks. I cant find the artical, but Ade might know where it can be found. I would guess that the small stress put on a rope by driving a crampon through it, does not weaken it as much as tying a knot in it, so the breaking point of the rope is still the knot, but in almost every case your ice pro will fail first.

[John Frieh]

1) Yes it should and it does. Read the UIAA test and you will see this:

 

A single rope must sustain on one strand a minimum of 5 test falls with a drop weight of 80 kg without breaking. Single ropes are recommended whenever a fall on a single strand can occur. They are safe in the event of a fall and are used in situations with potentially high fall factors.

 

Half ropes must also sustain 5 test falls on a single strand with a drop weight of 55 kg. They can be used as a single rope when the fall factor is less than 1. In the event of a serious fall, the necessary safety factors can only be achieved when the rope is used double. The double-rope technique is where each strand is clipped separately through different runners, giving two distinct very light single ropes. The greatest advantage of this technique is it provides less risk of total rope system failure.

 

Twin ropes are tested with a drop weight of 80 kg on two strands together and must survive 12 test falls. The twin-rope technique, when used correctly, provides the highest safety margin in event of a fall. In this technique both ropes are clipped together through the same karabiners where they act as a stronger, safe single rope.

 

2) Yes the physical act of clipping one of the two half ropes is no different, if not easier, than a single. However climbing on half ropes requires one pay more attention (compared to climbing on a single rope) as you generally clip the ropes alternately through your pieces of pro (yes exceptions exist). Doing this requires that you remember which one you clipped last (harder than it sounds especially when your attention is focused on the shitty screw you places 30’ below you) and, even more difficult, is not criss crossing the strands. As most climbers clip both ropes through the first piece of pro, it is easy to get the strands twisted up (and risk rope burn or cut). To combat this I put two separate biners on the clip end of the screamer (generally my first piece is a screamer) to promote rope separation. The bottom line: half ropes are easy to clip but employing them is a little more complicated than “clip and go”.

 

3) Clipping two ropes that are certified as half ropes through the same biner on one piece of equipment results in higher impact forces (forces felt by the faller, belayer, and most importantly the piece of pro you are falling on) than if just clipping one of the two half ropes ***unless the rope is certified and advertises as both a half rope and a twin rope… few ropes meet this distinction***. Yes we all run it out on ice but one of the two half ropes through each piece of pro is fine… if your belayer is using proper half rope belay technique than even if the piece of pro fails the other rope clipped through the next piece should catch you (as you protected against a ground fall) as your belayer knows to lock off both strands.

[John Frieh]

I think 11mm is probably overkill. Get it wet and iced and good luck loading it into most modern belay devices. I rapped synchronicity on two fat singles like that and I had to run face down psuedo-aussie style to get the frozen ropes through my device.

 

Have crampons and tools REALLY been demonstrated to cut ropes in a catastrophic sense, in a practical scenario? I.e. Spearing the rope with a pick or front point leads to the rope parting then and there? Most likely scenario to me is that you accidentally pierce the rope with a tool, it doesn't break though at worst gets a core shot or bad sheath damage, so you just chop that section off. If damage is from tools then it is necessarily close to your tie-in.

 

Wasn't there a UIAA test recently (last 2 yrs) where they stomped all over ropes and crampons and determined that the ropes were not damaged to any level requiring immediate retirement?

 

edit to add link: ACC safety articles

 

following my own logic I conclude that the best choice is a longish single skinnyish rope.

There is a study from the BMC that was published a few years ago that says in short "ropes dont break" even when stood on by crampons, and speared with picks. I cant find the artical, but Ade might know where it can be found. I would guess that the small stress put on a rope by driving a crampon through it, does not weaken it as much as tying a knot in it, so the breaking point of the rope is still the knot, but in almost every case your ice pro will fail first.

 

I'd be super interested in seeing that story... kinda related to that there has never been a recorded incident of a rope breaking/severing on its own... always an edge or something sharp has been involved. I generally consider/view my pro the weak link of the system… especially in alpine where less than ideal pro is sometimes the status quo. If one is climbing solid rock and using cams the next up in line to break are the runners (especially those rabbit runners/snake runners… 14/15 kN at best!) and then the rope.

 

Its also interesting to look at the % of full strength a rope breaks at depending on the knot tied… no wonder the follow through figure 8 is the only recommended knot…

[kurthicks]

you mean this article ?

 

this link has a lot of good reads.

http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/services/safety/

[Alasdair]

Nope that is not the artical I am talking about. The artical I am talking about was a very complete study that covered all types of rope damage, and fall senarios. I will see what I can do to dig it up.

[iain]

There is also the issue of expense. There seem to be some rich cats on this thread cause even with pro deals I can't afford a set of halves, a set of twins, a thin single, and a fat cragging single. I had two single ropes, and now one.

[Ade]

BMC Technical Advice Articles

[John Frieh]

Priorities man.

 

I bet you could afford some new cords if you ditched that PRG membership and started drinking Folgers...

 

Speaking of which could people buy more Intel stock? I need a snowmobile...