Bolting discussion.

[Bogen]

Do you think there should be ANY grid-bolted walls?

[scott_harpell]

Hell no.

[scott_harpell]

To clarify, I enjoy Darringtonesque routes. Many of the routes I did in Europe were excting as well. There is not place in teh outdoors for grid bolting.

[Bug]

In teh 70's and 80'2 the Bitterroots were transformed from a trad ethic that allowed bolts to connect trad lines. There were very few sport routes and they tended to be short. But the ethic changed in 84-89 and dozens of sport routes were developed all over the range and on the outskirts. People generally got along until bolt appeared next to protectable classic lines and even through petroglyphs in one case. It became a war with old friends parting ways and bolts going in everywhere and being chopped randomly and with malice. Some routes were chopped so that the leader would find himself run out above safe limits before realizing there were no more bolts. There were fist fights and death threats and more than a couple sabotaged cars. In the end the net result was less access through private lands and Larry the Tool types casting mean glances.

The point is that the "war" made it personal when the issue, I think, should have remained about best use and that horribly abused term, "multiple use".

The Forest Service got involved in AZ and the Bitterroot FS started watching climbers more too.

When closers came in AZ I was glad. It woke people up to the fact that it was not about climbers alone.

Radically changing a rock with highly visible shiny bolts was not popular to most people. All climbers in the area suffered as a result. We had several meetings with the FS and land owners in teh Bitterroots and they all had no problem with the use of trad techniques. It was only bolting that wrinled their panties. Why is this so hard to see? Look at Infinate Bliss. I would love to climb it and will. But it's very existence threatens climbing and bolting elswhere due to the fear that the Escalante AZ fiasco will be repeated.

Discuss

[backcountrydog]

This is not Europe. The prescendence has been set at ex. 38... these are the most vsited crags around here and most people's introductions to climbing. New climbers will then assume that this is how it should be and have taht as a frame of reference. I am not oppsed to sport routes in theory, I am most afraid of where it is going.

im not so sure that most people will assume this. and if they do, they will probably adjust there assumptions when they climb somewhere else. the next 2 closest climbing areas are index and mt erie? if these misguided exit 38 begginers go to one of these areas they will see that it is nothing like exit 38 and will assume that different styles of climbing are adopted at different crags. OR, 'most' of these climbers will never put up a rt in there life, therefore laying to rest any worries about them 'grid bolting every random piece of rock' out there.

i think that as climbers we are staying on top of things when it comes to overbolting. go read the 'bolts by subaru' thread

[scott_harpell]

'grid bolting every random piece of rock' out there.

 

Well people said that people wouldn't reto old classics, but the retros of D.D.D. and others in Leavenworth proved that a fallacy. I don't even think most of the routes in Leavenworth are run-out. This is why I am scared as I see these routes gettign retroed and wonder what the next generation of young climbers will find acceptable.

[backcountrydog]

the unwritten rule about adding fixed gear to an established line is 'ask permission from the first ascentionists'. i had heard that the offending bolters did get permission from the first ascntst. does anyone know if this is true?

that is 1 example and the rte was 'clumsily chopped'. i dont think that the next generation of climbers will have a problem understanding that this wasnt acceptable. im not aware of any others and i dont think that rts in leavenworth are runout in general either. but ddd was runout and 1 or more of the fixed pins that were present 'in the rtes original condition' when it was first led have been gone for a while. who cares the rt was chopped that ones over.

i would say dont be scared about 1 or 2 rts being retro'd. sometimes rts are brought out of obscurity and appreciated by climbers. go climbing...its more fun that being scared not climbing

[scott_harpell]

that is 1 example and the rte was 'clumsily chopped'.

 

I disagree... Have you seen it in person? After the first rain took away the dust, it is impossible to tell where the holes were from the ground and difficult on route.

[scott_harpell]

i would say dont be scared about 1 or 2 rts being retro'd.

 

I would say you are using short-sightedness. The trend is already in motion we are just now seeing the results: 1) in retros and 2) in wilderness bolting 3) places like ex. 38

[backcountrydog]

'clumsily chopped'

i was quoting from the guidebook.

[scott_harpell]

'clumsily chopped'

i was quoting from the guidebook.

 

So you have no first hand knowledge of this? Methinks Crammer was mad it got chopped and wanted to get even. The guys who did it are on (or were) this board. Take it up with them.

[DCramer]

Me thinks you mean Kramar not Cramer (or even Crammer)

[scott_harpell]

Mabe there was some hidden subconscious agenda there?!?!? haha

[Crackbolter]

Vic is just showing some side on the issue thats all. Perhaps the method of chopping is being criticized?

[backcountrydog]

'clumsily chopped'

i was quoting from the guidebook.

 

So you have no first hand knowledge of this? Methinks Crammer was mad it got chopped and wanted to get even. The guys who did it are on (or were) this board. Take it up with them.

dude, first hand knowledge? what are you talking about? i explained to you that 'clumsily chopped' was a quote from the guidebook. i could care less. so proof of whtvr is irrelivent. the POINT is, it was chopped and so the next generation of climbers you speak of will look at this and assume that bolting gear protected climbs is NOT acceptable. not the other way around. seems kind of silly to assume what all these new and upcoming climbers are going to be thinking just because they went climbing at exit 38 or heard about a retrobolt getting chopped?

[scott_harpell]

Yeah... first hand knowledge... like going there and checking it out.

[backcountrydog]

yes i have seen it

i was quoting from the guidebook

that quote was not the point

so, uthinks kramer was mad, etc etc. any first hand knowledge of this? who cares, this is way out in left field from bolt discussion.

[scott_harpell]

yes i have seen it

i was quoting from the guidebook

that quote was not the point

so, uthinks kramer was mad, etc etc. any first hand knowledge of this? who cares, this is way out in left field from bolt discussion.

 

So why did you bring it up?

[willstrickland]

...clumsily chopped

Perhaps the method of chopping is being criticized?

 

If you want to discuss or critique the way it was done (method) and whether is was "clumsy", feel free to PM me. I was one of the 3 people who chopped it.

 

That said, I think this is a distraction from what we are trying to discuss. I think Bug raises some important issues in his post above. We would benefit more from addressing and discussing those points than rehashing this one specific incident.

[billcoe]

Ethics aren't taught in the gym.

 

This is where many of the new climbers are coming from.

 

It's a rear-guard fight.

 

Good luck.

[Dru]

part of the freedom to place a bolt anywhere i wish is the freedom to chop a bolt anyplace i wish.

[scott_harpell]

...and the freedom to borrow Mitch's luvbar is my freedom as well. God bless AMERICA!!!

[JosephH]

This thread is drifting perilously close to drying up...

 

So let's guess...:

 

How many "climbers" are there today in the US and in the world?

 

How many fewer "climbers" would there be if there weren't bolt ladders (safe climbs done only with draws) up all over?

 

How many fewer "climbers" would there be if climbing couldn't be subdued into being "safe"?

 

How many fewer access issues would there be if climbing hadn't become "safe"?

 

You want to talk brass tacks about bolting?

 

The whole point of climbing was escaping the crowds, learning new skills (pro), and learning how to manage risk. Now the suburban hordes and their associated access problems have been allowed into the game by one, and only one, mechanism - bolting, with its attending elimination of risk (Verdon not withstanding).

 

Ninety percent of these "climbers" are simply looking to replicate their gym experience outside and that is the "gold" standard for them; that's why places like x38 are pretty much just outdoor climbing gyms. And most of the bolted climbs today aren't like Verdon, they are "bolt ladders" with an embarassing short interval between bolts designed to quarantee the elimination of risk. And somehow clipping a line of bolts has become "leading" as if "clipping" had mysteriously acquired a "skill" status higher than a base instinct or changing channels with a remote.

 

"Safe" climbing now appears to have become close to a right or entitlement - and when you come down to it most of these "climbers" are either incapable of or simply not interested in assuming the level of personal responsibility it takes to "make" your own safety on a route (placing pro). They want to know a climb is safe before they leave the ground, they don't want to have to "make" it safe.

 

Surfers are lucky - you can't bolt waves. They've preserved respect for their heritage and the past because going out and surfing today is just as dangerous as it was 40 years ago. Go out tommorrow and attempt to ride big waves over a shallow reef and you take your life in your hands same as it ever was - and you and the man or woman on the board next to you in the line up know exactly what kind of skill and courage it takes to drop in on the next big wave...

[Dru]

you can't bolt waves

 

But scuba-sport climbers can bolt coral. Don't bolt the coral!

[Szyjakowski]

...clumsily chopped

Perhaps the method of chopping is being criticized?

 

If you want to discuss or critique the way it was done (method) and whether is was "clumsy", feel free to PM me. I was one of the 3 people who chopped it.

 

That said, I think this is a distraction from what we are trying to discuss. I think Bug raises some important issues in his post above. We would benefit more from addressing and discussing those points than rehashing this one specific incident.

ican't believe viktor actually put that in his route description...what a shame. the route was led on gear..i do recall that it had a few pitons, but perhaps it can protect with new widgets.

 

the fact that remains is it was led with gear (preplaced or not, it takes gear).

 

that picture of croft on airstream with bolts near some rp cracks is almost a shame...the crack looks like (to me) not very gear friendly unless you pound a piton.

pitons damage rock like bolts..so there is not difference...that being said perhaps viktor's statement isn't that out of the playing field. the route probably needs a few bolts near wear pitons used to exhist, constituting a mixed lead....