lummox Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 ....the Forest Service agreed not to release the climber's name to the media scott ayers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Scott? Here's a tidbit: he was once involved in stripping all the bolts and chains off the Beaver Wall on Mt Lemmon in Tucson in a short anti-rap-bolt war in the mid 80's. Unlike the mangled hangers in that photo, no damage was done to the wall or the hardware, and it led to a large community meeting and discussion at someone's house, and the gear was deposited there in a huge clanking heap. I think there was a brief diminshment in activity, then there was a large climber population turn over and subsequent sport explosion. Scott went on to do a lot of bolting from hooks, and I believe from there into full on rap bolt creations. He's put up some good routes, and has been prolific as hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 With regard to the actual crime, rather than playing guess the perp, it sounds like a good outcome. Awareness and education about the issue will be good for everyone, and the more noise about it the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Once the letter is published the perpetrator's name will become known, no? Didn't Kurt Smith and Scott Cosgrove have to do a public mea culpa after drilling on the Muir, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 My point Caveman is that if there is a discussion about the issues then the thread is not in jeapordy of going to spray. If you and other posters devolve the conversation into threats of violence and personal attacks then it certainly will and your privalege to be a part of this community will be in jeapordy. To a large degree the fate of this and any other thread is dependent on the behavior of the people who post in it. The discussion does not have to be politically correct to be civil. You have made few points about the actual issue in your posts to this thread. Instead you have suggested that moderation is unfair and is the problem which is simply not true. If you honestly feel that in order to have your points taken seriously you have to be offensive and threatening, you need to find somewhere else to spray your ideas because that is not what the climbers board exists for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 and your privalege to be a part of this community will be in jeapordy. This sounds pretty heavy-handed and intrusive. It's comments like these that give others the impression that moderators ARE this way. You're proving his point for him. I am sure he is grateful, he's just shy about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 My point Caveman is that if there is a discussion about the issues then the thread is not in jeapordy of going to spray. If you and other posters devolve the conversation into threats of violence and personal attacks then it certainly will and your privalege to be a part of this community will be in jeapordy. My privilege? Privelege to what? Listen to your drivel about what you see correct? Or privilege to adhere to your bolt clippin policies here? In jeapardy of what? In jeopardy of making another avatar? At least I am using the same one over and over again here. To a large degree the fate of this and any other thread is dependent on the behavior of the people who post in it. The discussion does not have to be politically correct to be civil. I firmly believe the fate of this thread is doomed because you already expressed intention on moving it. You have made few points about the actual issue in your posts to this thread. Instead you have suggested that moderation is unfair and is the problem which is simply not true. I have made several very important issues clear. That some moderators of this board are wilderness bolters , that some “contributors to this board” are wilderness bolters. And having said that I think the board is biased to this sort of debate. Keeping that in mind let the mud slinging continue. If you honestly feel that in order to have your points taken seriously you have to be offensive and threatening, you need to find somewhere else to spray your ideas because that is not what the climbers board exists for. What does the board exist for? Don’t say anything and be hush hush about people here power drilling in the wilderness. You should try getting over your “moderator powers” and then read the thread better. At what time did I say the word threat or imply I was going to do so or accept it? At what time was I offensive? Probably more like a realist and right concise to my points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Aiee, can you two just get a room and have it out? Can someone explain to me how the sentence will be carried out? Educating climbers sounds fine and dandy but I'm trying to imagine how this would play out in WA. Motor-bolter standing around with a sign in the Index parking lot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Apologies for the thread drift Fleb. But given the statements made earlier in the thread I thought it necessary to respond on the moderator issue. Caveman, please re-read the policy you agreed to when you signed up to post on this board. If you cannot abide by the rules and intent of the rules you are welcome to find somewhere else to post or to start your own website. Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the contents of posted messages and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB or any entity associated with this BB. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB. For the full text go here. End of discussion on this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Can someone explain to me how the sentence will be carried out? Educating climbers sounds fine and dandy but I'm trying to imagine how this would play out in WA. Motor-bolter standing around with a sign in the Index parking lot? Now that's a good question. I think the constitution wouldn't allow stocks and pillories. Also, there's a question of just how effective the education could be if the person supposed to provide it is not truly repentant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Uh - what objectionable post did I make? Oh you mean the ones where I was truthful and concise? Where I supplied facts without personal attacks and without name calling or even naming names? Like I said get over yourself first and read the damn thread there. You are making all this thread drift with your own self induced soap opera. Whether or not you can refrain from further attacks on me will be seen. I have been within the limits of this boards rules yet am threatened by power hungry climbers like you and others that fabricate things that certainly do not exist... ------------------------------------------------------ At any rate - I don't believe in the idea of a convicted wilderness bolter "educating" other bolters or users. Nor do I agree with them representing me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ireneo_Funes Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 At any rate - I don't believe in the idea of a convicted wilderness bolter "educating" other bolters or users. Nor do I agree with them representing me. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's a little strange encouraging the guy who got caught breaking the rules to go out and educate other climbers on the issue. Whether or not it's good for his own reformation, it doesn't seem like he's got the right credentials for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squid Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Whether or not it's good for his own reformation, it doesn't seem like he's got the right credentials for the job. ...Muffy could teaching 'speling' ...Cap'n could lead 'sensitivity seminars' ...I could teach people how to climb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cman Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 the wilderness act is pretty clear in this matter. makes me wonder how those DUSEL jokers think they can get around it, they are after all doing something similar, except that there plan is make the hole a couple miles long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Cman, I'm not familiar with the details of the project, is the tunnel opening in a wilderness area? The loophole may be that the "wilderness area" doesn't extend to the center of the earth. Hmmm, by the same token, would that make lateral drilling into a wilderness area legal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 There is plenty of legal precedent for regarding the mineral rights below a property as separate from the surface of the land and the air rights too for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cman Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hmmm, by the same token, would that make lateral drilling into a wilderness area legal? let's hope not, i don't think that kind of precedent would be beneficial for the long term survival of our wilderness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I personally find part of the punishment to be very effective. The guy has to research the law and educate the public. Would you apply the same standard to, say, persons arrested for obstruction during a public protest ala WTO? Frankly, the guy in question should grow some balls and accept another form of punishment...or just fight the charges in court. I could really care less about the bolting debate either way...and I can see both sides. But when I read this story the image I conjur up is of some poor schmoe in the back of a flatbed truck with a shaved head and a signed confession hanging losely around his neck as he's driven past angry sidewalk crowds en route to his execution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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