Dru Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Saw on ukclimbing.com What are the BIG ISSUES facing climbing today - vegetated crags - decaying fixed gear – over use - access problems? The BMC is hosting a series of open debates on the ‘State of British Climbing’ over the next few months at: {list of dates and venues snipped} Panels of leading climbers (Fowler, Littlejohn, Radtke, Gibson, Gresham, Kirkpatrick and others) will join BMC President and CEO as your hosts for the evenings. There’ll be slideshows, buffets and beer. Sounds so typically British, Oh I say let's sit around and listen to leading climbers debate the issues.... and charge admission... What are the biggest issues with the "State of PNW climbing?" Bolts next to gear? Loss of access? Dangerous trad routes stopping the development of sport climbing? Prana tops? Dwayner's silly Yakov Smirnov pictures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Trail erosion at popular crags? Stupid @#$% permit system for Stuart range: Can't do permit lottery Friday night after leaving work, can't do permit lottery Saturday morning before leaving trailhead. This at the one place where the weather is most predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 The ever-increasing desire to do things "in a day" as a show of "coolness". Tacking on "car-to-car" in every discussion of a climb. One begins to wonder about the motivations of some people to be out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 1. Increasing recreational pressures are being placed on shrinking undeveloped lands. 2. Endangered species and other environmental regulations require governmental responses that include, in some instances, limiting climbers' access unless other viable alternative ways to comply with federal mandates are found. 3. Government land managers face shrinking budgets as they struggle to maintain roads and trails and they are forced to spend increasing amounts on environmental and legal procedures; in some cases, the most practical solution may be an area closure. 4. Many climbing areas suffer from unsightly erosion and plant destruction on the approaches and at the cliff edge or cliff base. 5. Visual impact from intensive removal or pruning of vegetation or the installation of brightly colored rappel slings is ugly and can disturb other visitors and land managers. 6. Climbers sometimes ignore crag closures, camp illegally, ignore wilderness regulations, engage in behavior offensive to other area visitors, let their dogs run unleashed, or cause other "police" problems. 7. Climbers are often unaware of, and in some cases ignore private property rights because they think their presence is not harmful. 8. Parking can be a problem, with climbers' cars getting in the way on narrow roadsides or tearing up sensitive roadside areas. 9. Despite State law and legal precedent that land owners or managers are not liable in the event of a climbing accident, liability concerns remain. 10. Bolting practices are an ongoing area of controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 So you don't think Fee Demo is in the top 10 Matt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I would say that Fee Demo IS a big problem, but it is more than just a climber problem; it's a backcountry user problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Fee demo is a lousy program, to be sure. The issue of shrinking budgets is the real problem, in my opinion, and I think that the rangers would be happy to see the Fee Demo program ended if they were given adequate funding from other sources. I think Congress and the government land management agencies should be directed to operate public lands with a more honest/balanced/forward-looking treatment of recreational/preservation/resource extraction priorities and to me, the abolition of Fee Demo is just a part of it. Points # 1 through 3 on my list are more about what I see as the "greeat issues" facing public lands and "Fee Demo" is in my mind more of a symptom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Index and Castle Rock need outhouses. But, hey, the parking is free... How much does an outhouse cost annually, anyways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ok, what about climate change? Important to ice and alpine climbers maybe more than bolt clipping crag monkeys. But are forest fires increasing in frequency? Smith, Skaha, Peshastin, Icicle have all been burnt recently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ok, what about climate change? Important to ice and alpine climbers maybe more than bolt clipping crag monkeys. But are forest fires increasing in frequency? Smith, Skaha, Peshastin, Icicle have all been burnt recently... In my mind, this is cyclical and not something we can change. With note on fires, now that fuel loads are reduced (due to fires), fires will be reduced. With regards to outhouse cost: A Honey Bucket costs around $85 a month, more if it's handicap accessible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Hotter = dryer= more frequent fires = the time between burn cycles gets shorter. Until the trees don't regrow and we are left wiuth cactus anyways I guess. Can you get a cactus fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ok, what about climate change? In my mind, this is cyclical and not something we can change... Dude: You're hardcore! Even Bush's scientists admit we're causing climate change and CAN change it. I'm not sure this is a "great issue" for climbing in particular, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Index and Castle Rock need outhouses. But, hey, the parking is free... How much does an outhouse cost annually, anyways? Be careful what you wish for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Alright, I'm carefully wishing for fewer turds at the crags then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ok, what about climate change? In my mind, this is cyclical and not something we can change... Dude: You're hardcore! Even Bush's scientists admit we're causing climate change and CAN change it. I'm not sure this is a "great issue" for climbing in particular, though. I might suggest that shortened climbing seasons and disappearing snow and ice routes in South America and Europe make it a "great issue" for climbing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spliffy Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 1) Too many know-it-alls. 2) This website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterMo Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Second a bunch of what's been posted plus: Regarding more winter stuff, particularly backcountry skiing the WSDOT/WSP combined effort to reduce/eliminate backcountry/out ot bounds skiing throught marking every conceivable pullout on US2 from Yodelin to Prophet's Point as "No Parking" or "15 Min Parking Only" plus the winter-only hitchiking & pedestrian ban from Yodelin to Scenic. The signs go up about when the area opens & come down when they close. doesn't have a fuken thing to do with traffic safety IMO just a desire to keep people out of the backcountry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Second a bunch of what's been posted plus: Regarding more winter stuff, particularly backcountry skiing the WSDOT/WSP combined effort to reduce/eliminate backcountry/out ot bounds skiing throught marking every conceivable pullout on US2 from Yodelin to Prophet's Point as "No Parking" or "15 Min Parking Only" plus the winter-only hitchiking & pedestrian ban from Yodelin to Scenic. The signs go up about when the area opens & come down when they close. doesn't have a fuken thing to do with traffic safety IMO just a desire to keep people out of the backcountry. That isn't their aim. Their aim is to make everyone a "paying customer" by forcing them into expensive snowparks so that they can subsidize use by snowmobilers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Now now guys, the snopark system (at least in oregon) is a pretty fair setup in my opinion. I'm happy to pay that fee to have a well-plowed highway and a spot to park in a snowstorm. That's a ton of work for not too much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Yeah, only most of that money goes into repairing parking lots that have been torn to shreds by slednecks driving over them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterMo Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Second a bunch of what's been posted plus: Regarding more winter stuff, particularly backcountry skiing the WSDOT/WSP combined effort to reduce/eliminate backcountry/out ot bounds skiing throught marking every conceivable pullout on US2 from Yodelin to Prophet's Point as "No Parking" or "15 Min Parking Only" plus the winter-only hitchiking & pedestrian ban from Yodelin to Scenic. The signs go up about when the area opens & come down when they close. doesn't have a fuken thing to do with traffic safety IMO just a desire to keep people out of the backcountry. That isn't their aim. Their aim is to make everyone a "paying customer" by forcing them into expensive snowparks so that they can subsidize use by snowmobilers. Maybe in part but what else they don't want is people dropping in to the highway from out of the area. The issue began with a boarder supposedly wanting to drop in to Old Faithful release area so avalance control and pedestrian safety are the red herrings. But bullshit; they don't control Wenatchee Bowl or Tunnel Creek and they ticket persons comeing out of those areas when they hit the highway & stick their thumbs out. The ski area, incidentally, opposed this policy when it came out to no avail, or so I have been told. Last spring when Old Cascade Highway and Tunnel Creek roads started to melt out where a car could pull off SR2 and park legally the fuck-monkey plow crews pushed snow up to make that impossible. Same bullshit situation occurs on Hwy 410 at the Crystal Mountain Turnoff and in MRNP. To go overnite to Van Trump Park in winter you have choice of parking Nisqually Bridge or Longmire, not Christine Falls where you leave the road though. Demented assholes: I parked at Christine Falls for YEARS and the sun still came up in the morning. Guess maybe I should stop.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Ok, what about climate change? In my mind, this is cyclical and not something we can change... Dude: You're hardcore! Even Bush's scientists admit we're causing climate change and CAN change it. I'm not sure this is a "great issue" for climbing in particular, though. I do think this is a big issue for climbing. It's also an issue for winter backcountry pursuits, which some of us value equally. I mourn when I see evidence of recently receeded glacier ice and bare rock in late season where there has always been snow or ice previously. The evidence in Colorado is even worse. Check out this pathetic little piece of snow they call a glacier here: http://hikingincolorado.org/images/stmary_12b.jpg Ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 How about the sheer number of climbers today? Anyone got stats on the number of climbers by year since 1960. What would happen, hypothetically, if gyms and bolts disappeared and all that remained was trad climbing. I suspect we have generated our own problems (just the fact that there is something called the "American Safe Climbing Assoc (ASCA)" is probably highly indicative that we are responsible...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 I was reading mattp's list, and agree that many of the other points raised so far are important. I think two of the greatest problems today are "access" (which mattp's list has several variations of this as seperate bullet items) and "training". I think as a sport, climbing has been forever changed by the advent of climbing gyms and sport climbing, which makes the bar very low for newbie climbers outside. More and more often I see people at the crags who clearly have not had sufficient training. In time this will lead to more accidents, regulations, permits, insurance, (bad) media coverage, and ultimately restricted access. Climbers and all such outdoor users have always been self-goverened in that way, but as the numbers of users becomes greater this is going to get alot more difficult. I think both overcrowding and its access issues, and adequate training (whatever that means) are the emerging problems of the next 30 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 That gym-to-crag issue is big, Alex. Not only do we see people on the crags and in the mountains who may lack a background in outdoor survival and safety matters, but the gym-climbing initiation leads newer climbers in particular to sometimes expect or seek a gym-like experience when they head outdoors. I'm not looking to spark a "sport climbers suck" attack thread, but efforts to minimize our visual impact and environmental concerns can be lost in the tunnel-visioned pursuit of performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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