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Originally posted by Peter Puget:


Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Now we're really getting into semantic mince-meat....


"All-around 5.11 climbers" can be shown 5.11s that they would piss their collective pants on.


Which begs the question: What does it mean to be a solid 5.11 climber? If'n ya don't can't won't do a certain 5.11, ya ain't a "all-around 5.11 climber"?

Well it does beg the question somewhat. What I would say is that those 5.11s one can't/won't climb would be "few."



PP: The term "few" places some conditional limits on a given context, regardless of one's peripatetic reasoning....

If I know a "few" climbers, this would limit that sample pool to perhaps 5 in size. Now if a few of those climb X, Y, or Z, "few" would still denote a number which the term refers to:


"Amounting to or consisting of a small number: one of my few bad habits.

Being more than one but indefinitely small in number: bowled a few strings." (per


So given this sordid state of affairs, ALL of my 5.13 climber buds could be "all-around 5.11 climbers", since the sample pool is but a "few"....


Ummmm....so there.

Well it is nice if they all are. That still doesn't change my argument anymore than the probability of having "heads" come up the next time you flip a coin changes after it comes up heads 10 times in a row just before the flip in question.


But I do question your use of the dictionary. It is not the word "few" that enables you to not be inconsistent by now claiming that ALL your 5.13 friends are solid all-around 5.11 leaders. But your previous use of the word "least".

Here it is: at least a few of the 5.13 climbers I know are quite good on trad, with 5.12 gear on-sight abilities.


Please less time in the gym and more in school!


By the way any volunteers to tow me up Mary's Tears/Crucifx?



Good God! You've been spending too much time in school, and you're still not getting it right!


Either one works!


Now cheers, goddamnit. [big Drink]

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Jesus Christ, people, am I going to have to quit my job in order to keep up with cc.com? I have not time to read all of this! Quit posting so much! [laf]


I love the idea of hearing Dr. K yelling when I'm climbing, maybe it's just the impetus I need to get out on the other end of the rope, the one where all of the fun stuff takes place.


....and I know just who should be on the other end.....Petey? Up for it? Nobody's actually seen it happen for quite some time now!



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DFA, most of the climbs PP mentioned are technical crack masterpieces in Yosemite that demand strength, grace, power management, and excellent gear placement skills. I'm assuming that Peter, like myself, can lead bolted face climbs several grades harder than crack routes. This is true for many people I know, but certainly not all: take Erik for example. I don't know much in the way of 5.13 climbers, so I don't know if that trend exists at the level, but I suspect it does. Bolted sport routes can be really fun, but I think for most climbers on the planet, hard crack climbs involve a significant fear component (I know, different thread) that sport climbing consciously tries to eliminate from the equation.

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I'm glad I missed this one! Mentioning....well, this has nothing to do with whatever this thread was about. Anyhooters, I just picked up Beckham's Squamish guide and noticed that in his preface pages he admonishes climbers who toprope a classic climb to death (his example was Flying Circus), stating that excessive travel and sloppy bootwork make these routes slick.


I never thought about this, but I tend to agree. When I started climbing, if there was a classic pitch that I knew protected well but that was out of my range, I waited until I was pretty sure I could lead the damn thing in good style. To TR first and lead later was like having the answers handed to me, like paying a girl to be intimate. It is amazing how many climbers I meet who will toprope the mystery right out of a climb and then come back to lead it later. Dudes, you're really cheating yourselves of a thrill, and according to Beckham, you're damaging the route. As an anecdote, I should add that I once toproped Equinox in Joshua Tree. Given the grade and my mediocre abilities, I assumed I would never be able to lead it and that toproping would be a huge struggle. To my surprise, I got that thing first try, and I noticed that the gear was superb and easy to get. I'll probably never lead it, but I kick myself for not trying to lead it on sight.

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

BTW, damn good climbing.


Haven't tried it, but it's the tips crack out in the desert that goes at 12d?

I guess, but it felt like 5.11b by Joshua Tree standards. I'm sure it's quite a bit harder to lead. We also toproped Baby Apes which at 5.12c could have been 5.13 as far as I know. That mother is a bear, a brown bear. Couldn't even get the move.

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