arresting with a pack

[Blakej]

I recently realized while on a trip that I had never attempted to arrest with a large pack on and that this might make a significant change in technique and ability to arrest a slide. I seems like every arrest practice I've heard of really doesn't really do this either. Anyone noticed a big difference? Offer advice? It seems that if your axe is strapped into your hand opposite of the side your sliding on it would be fairly difficult to roll over into the proper arrest position. I'll probobly go test this theory this week but any suggestions would be helpful.

[John Frieh]

At least one particular outdoor education group I know (I'm not going to name any names) has students practice literally hours in just about every slide position possible both with and without a pack as well as in glacier rigs and not in glacier rigs. And you are right; its a beeyotch to roll with a pack (especially if you end up sliding up side down). That's why: Practice Practice Practice.

[DPS]

Related question:

 

I know some climbing schools advocate keeping cramponed feet out of the snow when arresting to avoid breaking an ankle or starting a tumbling fall in hard snow.

 

RMI specifically says to kick your feet in regardless of snow conditions or if you are wearing cramons or not.

 

Any comments?

[fenderfour]

"Stop anyway you can stop."

 

The whole cramponed feet thing depends on conditions... etc.

[Blakej]

Speaking out of complete ignorance but it seems like fender four hit it. I'll take a bum ankle or whatever over sitting in the bottom of a crevasse seriously mangled or dead anyday.

[catbirdseat]

It is not easy to arrest with a large pack if you happen to fall on your back, head downhill. If you happen to be lying on the side with the head of the axe, if is a simple matter to arrest. But if you are lying on the opposite side, it is a bitch. I've found you have to sometimes let yourself tumble to get into position. I haven't yet found a satisfactory solution.

 

Regarding use of cramponed feet, I teach people to use both methods, knees or feet, and tell them to use their judgement on which to use based on snow conditions. I know that there are conditions where it is simply impossible to arrest if you don't use your feet.

 

This isn't simply and issue of risking a broken ankle. Catching a crampon can flip you and start a tumble from which you'll never recover. The best solution is to practice enough that that you can arrest very rapidly and don't have any time to pick up speed.

[forrest_m]

the problem with a large pack is that you won't be able to do the "sit up and plant your axe" technique that gets the fastest result sans pack. so i think your best chance to stop fast is to ignore the theory and roll towards whichever hand has the head of your axe and get the pick in however and wherever you can. (if you are head down, probably around shoulder level, head up maybe mid-chest?) if the snow is hard enough that you are in danger of a slide-for-life, you can probably get enough grab with it to flip you and your pack into arrest position, even if you are technically spinning the "wrong" way.

 

as far as the crampons go, RMI tends to teach the minimum necessary, since most of their clients will never use an ice axe after they get their summit of rainier - they don't want people to waste time thinking "feet or no feet?", so they teach a single way. i would say that, as with all climbing questions, the answer begins "it depends". I tend to practice with my feet, on the theory that with crampons on i am unlikely to fall in the first place

[Dru]

the best solution is not to fall over on easy snow!

[Blakej]

Gotta retort to the almighty dru. No shit, but I'm a beginner and even the best have their feet fall out from underneath them at some time or another. On a steep slope or somthing. What decent climber wouldn't be prepared for such a situation. Just like a good boyscout always be prepared.....

[John Frieh]

DPS: Ahh... trick question...

 

First and foremost; if you have crampons on you should not be able to kick your feet (not crampon points…feet) in as (we all know) the only time you put your crampons on is when you can't kick steps. So a slip with crampons on means you are on very firm snow/icy conditions.

 

With a slip wearing crampons use your knees and once (if) you slow down then use your crampons once you have reached a speed that will not result in a bum ankle or getting flipped over. The key in a good self arrest is prevention: the sooner you react the more likely you are to stop...

 

One should remember that the main stopping power to a slip is the arm on the lower shaft of the tool; specfically levering it across one's chest while at the same time putting as much force with one's shoulder onto the shaft to engage/drive the pick of the tool into the medium.

 

Practice Practive Practive... with a pack without a pack in a rope team not in a rope team upside down right side up ice axe in different hand positions no ice axe with green eggs and ham

[DPS]

I know for a fact that one should use jugdment, I just wondered if RMI was alone in advocating kicking the feet in regardless of snow firmnes or crampon use.

 

I managed to take a real doozy of a slide once (Alex and MattP were witnesses) down a steepish rock hard snow slope with out an axe or crampons. I tried arresting with the tip of my trekking pole but it did not help. In desparation I kicked my un-cramponed toes which resulted in a somersaulting tumble which then left me rocketing downhill, on my back, head first. I was fucked. The picket on my pack snagged the hard snow and spun me around and started the somersaults again until I landed, and stopped in a patch of softer snow.

 

That's why I think the kick your feet dogma regardless is a pile of crap. It only made things worse for me.

[Dru]

Gotta retort to the almighty dru. No shit, but I'm a beginner and even the best have their feet fall out from underneath them at some time or another. On a steep slope or somthing. What decent climber wouldn't be prepared for such a situation. Just like a good boyscout always be prepared.....

 

I think I have been using an ice axe for 20 years and the total amount of time I practiced self arresting was about 15 minutes. What I have practiced is balance - not falling over. Hence my suggestion. 1 oz. prevention (not falling over) = 1 lb. cure (self arresting).

 

Also to CBS point - I find when I have fallen over, about twice in the last 10 years, both times it has been due to wearing crampons and catching a crampon point in a leg or gaiter. So don't just assume if you have the poons on you will not be toppling either.

 

Inbcidentally I have managed to self arrest in all seriouis falls just fine even with just those 15 minutes of practice. Including a 90m bobsled run down the lower ice approach pitches of Cascade Falls! I swung my ice tool into a bush as I whizzed by and it held Fear does more for my self arresting skills than any amount of boring practice falling would.

[iain]

yes I have seen someone trying to self arrest from the chute on mt hood's south side. They were not really doing a very good job, but were sort of in the self arrest position, so it was not too bad. But when they caught their feet, both crampons were immediately ripped off their boots, and the person started airborne ragdolling down the slope, letting out a bloodcurdling scream of someone dying. Never want to see that again!

[forrest_m]

DPS - who is calling kick your feet in "dogma?" only you. everyone else so far has noted that it depends on conditions.

 

for example, 2 of the 3 times i have ever done self arrest in earnest were to stop a crevasse fall by my partner in soft snow conditions. digging my feet in was essential to holding the fall in both cases. (the third time was in hard snow and halfway into trying to arrest, i slid head first into a moat - i was amazed at how fast i had accelerated)

 

it's interesting, i have a lot more experience trying to stop crazy slides on skis, which almost always involves getting your feet beneath you and applying your edges, and i've never flipped head-over-heels, even on very steep & icy terrain. for better or worse my instincts would probably have me using the sides of my feet (not my toes) if i was sliding on hard snow without crampons, i wonder if that would reduce the flip-over-ragdoll effect?

 

FWIW, dru is probably right that it's best not to fall in the first place, but by that argument, we shouldn't practice belaying either, right?

[Dru]

yeah but if you rock climb you will hold enough falls you don't have to specially practice belaying.

[Ireneo_Funes]

It's definitely worth practicing self-arrest with a pack on (esp. head-downhill, on your back)...you might not get good at it, but at least you'll appreciate how difficult it is. And maybe then you'll try even harder not to fall in the first place. Practicing and realizing the limits of self-arrest has made me a more careful climber.

[DPS]

Forrest,

 

I know that RMI teaches their clients to always kick the feet in regardless of snow conditions or whether one is wearing crampons or not. I know this because I had an argument with Lou Whittaker over this while trying out for his guide service 10 years ago. (They passed on hiring me). So to answer your question, kicking your feet in is dogma at RMI.

 

I fully agree that one has to make a judgment based on conditions.

[catbirdseat]

When I go to my job interview next week I'll try to remember not to get in an argument with my prospective employer.

[Stefan]

My partner fell into a crevasse hole one time on the way out. While the rope was taught I didn't have to self arrest due to the friction of the crevasse lip on the rope. About 20 seconds later while I was holding him taught (he said he could extract himself from his yells) I fell into a different crevasse (up to armpits). The only thing holding us was the rope taughtness on the snow between the two crevasses.

[Dru]

Having been properly taught, I know the difference between taut and taught.