Access warning

[olyclimber]

blt me you clammer!

[Lambone]

BOLT THIS:

 

[pope]

Call 'em what they is: B_LTS.

 

Edited June 10, 2004 by pope

[Lambone]

Isn't that the "Far Side"

 

I tell ya what pope, you chop those bolts and those two wingnuts will be in the same pose up at WA Pass before you know it...they will anyway...I taught them to climb at VW and told them all about how cool the Alpine Trad climbs are...and even told them there are some Alpine bolted climbs in Wilderness Areas...some rated only 5.10b! Shit they crank 11a at the gym...they will be there soon enough, it's all inevitable.

 

They will be secretly toting Bosches up el cap to re-bolt Charlie Porters classic lines next season...with fat 3/8" and Metolius hangers of course. 1 down, several to go...

 

"Damn it must have been alot of work drilling all these fat bolts by hand... "

[pope]

You know, that would be kind of funny ....if it weren't at least half true! "This is a b_lt. This is a gri-gri. When you get tired, just say "take". Any questions? OK, then you graduate and....here's your certificate...says right here that you've been trained in the subtleties of sport climbing at Lambone's School of Mountaineering. Fifty bucks please."

[Lambone]

You know, that would be kind of funny ....if it weren't at least half true! "This is a b_lt. This is a gri-gri. When you get tired, just say "take". Any questions? OK, then you graduate and....here's your certificate...says right here that you've been trained in the subtleties of sport climbing at Lambone's School of Mountaineering. Fifty bucks please."

 

No, that's not at all true, none of it. All i said was that I encourage people to go climb in the mountains, not that I taught a mountaineering class.

 

You see, unlike you I like encouraging people to take up climbing.

 

And for the small details, we did not teach with a gri-gri, we taught folks to fall, not take, there were no certifications other than what they needed to lead in the gym, and they were specificly told that they were not being taught to climb outdoors, only in the gym. i'm sure it's still like that, but I haven't been there in two years.

 

God you are such a fucker.

[EWolfe]

 

Mmmmmm, sandwiches!

[EWolfe]

Bolting? Trails? Hell, lets tear up a couple of mountains!

 

 

 

[Lambone]

dude, scroll up, I did that one allready...

[pope]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not interested in chopping Exit 38. Let it serve as an example of all that is pathetic in climbing. And I kind of agree that it has helped disperse the crowds. But at the same time, I think the crowd has grown since clipping bolts came in vogue.

[Bill_Simpkins]

Did these people gave up on the oil companies and logging companies or what?

Don't they have anything better to put their energy into?

These are just college hippies feeling important because they thought of something new to whine about. They are jumping on the bandwagon. It's an easy way to make friends.

What's funny is that many of us, including myself, care very much about the environment, but these "crunchy chewy's" are just stupid! They need to put more thought into picking their battles.

There is over population, which may be the doom of the world, there are nukes in third world countries, there are a billion SUV's on the road driving fat people one block down the street to get Wonder Bread and Pizza Pockets.

Some climbers hacking some trails is not going to destoy the Earth. They need to re-focus their efforts.

Fucking HIPPIES! AARRGGGHHH!!

[Lambone]

maybe I'm wrong, but didn't bolt clipping become in vogue like almost 20 years ago, back with pink lycra???

 

the crowds of all out door enthusiest...climbers, mt bikers, skiers, motocrossers, kyakers, backpackers, hunters, fly fishermen, waterskiers, Mt Si hikers...etc, have all increased proportionaly in the last 10 or so years, for many reasons...get over it.

[Lambone]

Bill,

 

Me thinks that climbers and their bolts and trails are just the ammunition they are looking for to fight their missguided battles. Are you sure they are hippies?

[willstrickland]

Don't forget this one dudes...best rock in Georgia...water slides, train, laser shows, concerts, cable car, but NO CLIMBING ALLOWED!

 

[marylou]

I think the issue may be the Wilderness thing.

 

Not all bolts everywhere.

[Off_White]

Dwayner said: (paraphrased and condensed) what I like is valid and what you like is not valid

 

 

It somehow seems fitting that you would choose the image of shit on an AIDS ribbon as a graphic emblem of the disdain you hold for other climbers. What is your symbolic subtext here, do you perhaps also have some diatribe about how "gay cancer" will get rid of people you don't like in the same way that limiting access and banning bolts will eliminate all those climbers you hate? Having read your polemics and Pope's rants for several years, it seems to me that you both would like the sport climbers, the boulderers, the gym climbers, the loud climbers, the young climbers, in fact, most climbers to just go away. You think by embracing limitations to access you can achieve your goal? Word up professor, to ALPS you're still a climber, and the movement to remove people from wilderness wants you gone as well.

 

 

You fancy yourself a traditionalist, when in fact you are a fundamentalist. You hark back to a rosy past when you were young, and climbing made you feel special. I too like that 32 year old essay from Chouinard's old catalog. At the time, it was written by someone on the cutting edge of climbing pushing new ideas to advance the sport. In contrast, you (and I) are more like the back side of a dull butter knife, and your dream is to limit climbing and narrow the definitions to resemble your memories. Like a fundamentalist you are selective in what part of history and tradition you stress. As others have tried to point out, bolts have long played a roll in climbing, and there were plenty of bolts placed in 1972.

 

 

I've also enjoyed many of your posts over the last couple years, and I recently thought of you and developed a spontaneous grin at my first sighting of "The Bomb" burrito in a convenience market cold case. You have a gift for humor, and a style all your own with a Google image search. I don't mean to imply that you have brought nothing of value to this place, but it's the hatred and cold dismissal you wield towards those who don't conform to your behavioral mandates that often make you a bitter and unwelcome presence.

[MervGriffin]

Off White says:

"It somehow seems fitting that you would choose the image of shit on an AIDS ribbon as a graphic emblem of the disdain you hold for other climbers. What is your symbolic subtext here, do you perhaps also have some diatribe about how "gay cancer" will get rid of people you don't like in the same way that limiting access and banning bolts will eliminate all those climbers you hate?"

 

It's not an "AIDS" ribbon, it's a corsage! and "hate" is a rather strong word to impose on someone you really don't know. If I choose to use the word "hate", I'll do it myself. If you fancy yourself a sub-text interpreter, and (pseudo) psychologist don't quit your day-job ["when climbing made you feel special" "and your dream is to limit climbing and narrow the definitions to resemble your memories" THOSE ARE QUITE THE STATEMENTS, PARDNER! ].

Should I give up certain deeply held values of mine because so many have abandoned them (or more likely aren't aware of them)? As I mentioned long ago when this stuff came up, it doesn't matter if the clean climbing ethos was articulated in 1972, 1972 B.C., or 2004, I continue to find it absolutely appealing and relevant. I really don't see much of what goes on in rock climbing today to be "progress".

 

Off-White again:

"it's the hatred and cold dismissal you wield towards those who don't conform to your behavioral mandates that often make you a bitter and unwelcome presence."

 

Your gratuitous use of the word "hate" is again disturbing. If expressing an unpopular viewpoint makes me unwelcome, that speaks for itself. I don't require that anyone conform, (climbers rarely do), and I have no real power of enforcement of my views or yours other than persuasion. I am not the only one who subscribes to my perspective, however, and although it isn't as fun as the "do whatever you want whenever you want" school of thought, unrestrained behavior will, and is having, its consequences (e.g. the Joshua Tree bolt ban). No, it ain't "all good" as some are fond of saying. My Golden Age isn't 30 years ago, pal, it's now, and I have every right to throw my two cents into the idea arena.

 

Have a nice day.

 

P.S. They's all likes me when I'm cute and funny with the giggly stories and the silly pictures. Express a "radical" perspective and.....watch out! I'm hateful!

 

[Off_White]

I see nothing gratuitous, I call it like I see it. Do you want to quibble about vocabulary? Would you prefer the term "dislike"? How about "despise"? I notice that you don't disupute that you want "those people" to go away from "your" sport.

 

You, Pope, and I are demographically similar. We're middle aged middle class family guys who've been climbing for in the neighborhood of 30 years. We're not taking big risks, we're not climbing anywhere near the technical limits of the sport, hell, we're probably not climbing as well as we did 10 years ago, and we're for damn sure not climbing as often. We're not historically significant enough to get noticed for past achievements, we're not going to get noticed for our current abilities, and we're not quite old enough to make the "awwww, it's so cute that they can still climb" category. What avenue for cheastbeating do you have left besides climbing on a soapbox to rage about ethical purity and sport cleansing?

 

Is there really any substance there anyway? How do your deeply held values (with regards to climbing differ from AlpineK's list of likes and dislikes?:

I like

 

Solid bolts that are placed to provide a decent amout of protection for a route and where the clips are at natural spots for someone climbing the route.

 

I dislike

 

Bolts next to cracks

Excessive bolting

Bolts placed at unnatural spots on a climb

Shitty drilling and placement

Bolted routes that are obvious squeeze jobs.

I think this statement is something most everyone here, myself included would agree with. How much more pure are you asking the sport to be?

[Off_White]

My Golden Age isn't 30 years ago, pal, it's now, and I have every right to throw my two cents into the idea arena.

 

Are you sure you don't mean your Golden Years? Heh, now I'm quibbling about vocabulary.

 

source

A golden age is period in a field of endeavour where great tasks were accomplished. The term originated from early Greek and Roman poets who used to refer to a time when mankind lived in a utopia and was pure.

Within sequences or cycles of eras, the golden age stands alongside the silver age and the iron age, and conditions can improve or decline according to one's conception of mythic progression.

 

Common Golden ages include:

 

 

Golden age of Latin literature, the period in Latin Literature between Cicero and Ovid.

Golden age of Swordplay, period of Sword skills between 16th and 18th century.

Dutch Golden Age, 17th century

Polish Golden Age, 16th century

The Golden Age of the British whodunit

The Golden Age of Radio

Golden Age of Comic Books, period between 1938 and 1945

The Golden Age of Hollywood animation

Golden age of science fiction, period between the 1930s and 1950s

Golden age of arcade games, the mid-1980s

Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain, period between 900 and 1100

Siglo de oro, the golden age of Spanish literature.

See also: millennialism

 

The mention of millenialism is interesting, seems it's another hallmark of a fundamentalist world view.

[MervGriffin]

Off White: "Would you prefer the term "dislike"?"

 

Yes, that is more preferable than "hate". Perhaps "strongly dislike" is closer to the mark.

 

Off-White: "What avenue for cheastbeating do you have left besides climbing on a soapbox to rage about ethical purity and sport cleansing?"

 

Dude. Once again, your analysis of my thoughts and aims are very presumptive and basically inaccurate. I have no personal need to "chestbeat". I'm perfectly content with the state of my climbing abilities and achievements. If I want attention, I prefer it be the happy positive kind which is easily achieved by making posts about being drunk, idolizing Big Lou, or eating burritos. I do, however, feel that I have a valuable viewpoint that needs to be shared, no matter how unpleasant some might perceive it.

 

Off-White: "How much more pure are you asking the sport to be?"

 

I don't care for the whole sport-climbing phenomenon which is by nature bolt-dependent and thus utterly reliant upon fixed gear. Its very ease promotes crowding and the proliferation of bolted routes. A Bosch, the ability to rappel, and a big ego are all that are needed to install yet another PERMANENT "creation". Perhaps you would agree with me that a minimum of fixed gear is preferable in a "leave as little trace as possible" ethic. Sport-climbing defies this ethic. Look at the evidence. Go out to Vantage and look around; it's a disgrace (and I don't buy into the argument that it's just another choss pile so who cares). ditto Smith Rocks, etc.

 

Not everything needs to be climbed on lead. A top-rope with fixed anchors would relieve vast amounts of bolts. (Note I am not 100% completely opposed to fixed anchors or bolts....they have their small place, and if used, should be RARE and safe.)

Maybe some rock should be left alone if it can't be climbed without leaving a permanent trail?

Maybe the manufacturers of sport-routes should think twice about their impact? Can you agree with that?

 

We can evolve past sport-climbing and years from now look on it as a fun but sordid and selfish historical permutation.

 

[Off_White]

Maybe the manufacturers of sport-routes should think twice about their impact? Can you agree with that?

 

Yes, I can certainly agree to that.

 

I'll also agree that "hate" is a bit of a loaded buzzword, and appreciate your frankness in embracing "strongly dislike"

[pope]

I notice that you don't disupute that you want "those people" to go away from "your" sport.

Actually, what I want is for those who are creating the current controversy to knock off the alpine sport climbs that are getting us in trouble in the Alpine Lakes. And I would like the people who are suggesting that my comments ("rants") are what will ultimately get us banned...I would like these people to stop kidding themselves. If I'm wrong, it should be easy to produce the name of at least one land manager who has read even one word that I wrote (with the alleged negative impact to access). I'd love to speak with this person/people if in fact such exists.

 

I certainly don't care whether anybody goes away or continues to partcipate or whatever. I don't hate anybody, and I think it is symptomatic of your innability to discuss this issue that has caused you to suggest you know what motivates me.

 

I hate bolt abuse (not every bolt) and I hate the documented access restrictions that have resulted therefrom.

 

You, Pope, and I are demographically similar. We're middle aged

You don't know my age

 

middle class

relevant because?

 

family guys

who I assume hope the mountains will be availabe for our children's enjoyment in the condition we found them

 

We're not historically significant enough to get noticed for past achievements, we're not going to get noticed for our current abilities, and we're not quite old enough to make the "awwww, it's so cute that they can still climb" category. What avenue for cheastbeating do you have left besides climbing on a soapbox to rage about ethical purity and sport cleansing?

5.2 or 5.12, young or old, novice or veteran, I'm entitled to an opinion. I'm not "cheastbeating" and I have no need for such. There are people (I'm sure some very small number) on this very board who respect some of the very bold climbing I've done. I don't advertise it because I think it's irrelevant to the discussion. At one point I became caught up in the insults and suggestions that I'm a slouch and therefore not entitled to an opinion, and I sent a photograph of some bold climbing I've done to a guidebook author. Now I regret it.

 

 

I like

 

Solid bolts that are placed to provide a decent amout of protection for a route and where the clips are at natural spots for someone climbing the route.

 

I dislike

 

Bolts next to cracks

Excessive bolting

Bolts placed at unnatural spots on a climb

Shitty drilling and placement

Bolted routes that are obvious squeeze jobs.

I think this statement is something most everyone here, myself included would agree with. How much more pure are you asking the sport to be?

 

I agree with everything here. He could have added that he dislikes restriced access resulting from a land manager's reaction to unrestrained bolting.

 

Finally, it is truly interesting that the most important ethical/access discussions of this decade are allowed to exist only in SPRAY. It is similarly interesting that a photo with BLT sandwiches representing B_LTS gets chopped from my post. What's the harm? Does anybody have a sense of humor anymore?

[Dru]

i bolted my fucking sandwiches at lunch today. man was i hungry. they had chopped vegetables and meat in them but neither was a blt. however, i BOUGHT a BOLT today. im gonna place it on rappel

[Lambone]

Actually, what I want is for those who are creating the current controversy to knock off the alpine sport climbs that are getting us in trouble in the Alpine Lakes.

 

I totaly agree with you here pope. Once I found out (just recently) that the IB route and other route(s) in the Darrington area (both in a wilderness), were bolted with a Power drill my whole attitude towards this situation changed.

 

I'm not necisarily against bolting with a power drill, I've never done it, but I have assisted those who have. However, when you are in Wilderness Boundries or within a National Park, the rules of the game change and need to be upheld or it affects us all.

 

People that take Power dirlls into the Wilderness...anywhere, or up onto cliffs likee El Capitan are extremely selfish and lazy. They do not respect the manner in which generations of climbers have toiled with a hand drill because it was required by Law. I belive those people should be called out. Their mark on the wilderness should be made an example of and erased as thouroughly as possible, by the perpitrator. And they should be held accountable for what ever consequences are required by the Law.

 

I think as a user group we need to police ourselves (because the land managers do not have resources to do that) and uphold this ethic. Otherwise access to these areas will continue to be chalanged in the future, for our children....and theirs.

 

I think once word gets out to the masses around the country that this so-called "Worlds Longest Sport Route" was bolted in a Wilderness area with a power drill, on rappel non the less, some serious shit is going to hit the fan. It will be on the cover of all the rags for sure. Then mister environmental activist isn't going to need to search for the name "pope" in cc.com Spray to get his evidence, it will be in print, in bold letters.

 

These guys fucked up bad, and if everything I have heard is just a rumor milll, then they need to come out and step up and defend their actions. And I know of other similar situations that have occured illegaly in the last year or so in another state that is even worse, and it pisses me of something serious, and I'm not alone on that....

 

My $.02

[chucK]

Why don't you out those guys in the "other" state too? Could it be because it is closer to where you live and you'd rather only stir up trouble for climbers in Washington?