What if the UN was in charge of Iraq?

[gotterdamerung]

can't you people stop talking about prisoner torture in iraq, it's obvious it's making the warmongers uncomfortable. so uncomfortable in fact, that they'll stoop down to accusing you of being a traitor if you bring it up one more time. so let's get back on topic and talk only about how perverted the un is or else ...

 

I think the events at Abu Ghraib were sensationalized by the media and blown out of proportion overall. There are better things to focus on and the 'warmongers' did not bring this topic up in this thread. J_B you going to snugclub? I am just now back in town and looking to displace some of my post traumatic stress syndrome.

 

To get back on topic, I would say the UN would botch the effort in Iraq much as they have botched every other peacekeeping effort they have participated in. They are also a major target of the Islamic fundamentalists who view the UN as a tool of the Zionists (wow big surprise). Maybe I should post some pictures of Sergio's funeral last August since I was there. He was a respected member of the UN and his death by car bombing was the reason the UN pulled out like a bunch of scared rabbits. They will fail.

[iain]

You know full-well what you said, but:

 

Peace was unpatriotic in 1775...

 

..and then when someone claimed what bullshit comparison that was your response was:

 

1941

[j_b]

I think the events at Abu Ghraib were sensationalized by the media and blown out of proportion overall.

 

let's not talk about systemic torture, it could be embarrassing?

 

J_B you going to snugclub? I am just now back in town and looking to displace some of my post traumatic stress syndrome.

 

is this a veiled threat?

[gotterdamerung]

No actually I was inquiring if you were going to be there to discuss politics. You are below my physical prowess to be honest with you.

[foraker]

'sensationalized by the media'? wow, there's a surprise. who would a thunk it!?

[gotterdamerung]

From the perspective that I hold it's almost laughable that we have to even answer to the Arabs for those photos. They are fine ones to be talking. Saudi is one of the most systematic torturers in the world, and we're not talking about some assinine kids taking some dumbass photos and pointing at some guys genitalia. We're talking about bone breaking pros. Not to mention their well documented kidnapping of westerners as sex slaves who are never heard or seen from again. Abu Ghraib in Saddam's day was a virtual hell on earth. NOW the Iraqi's are outraged? BLOW ME IRAQ. We shouldn't be apologizing for shit. We should punish dumb soldiers who do dumb shit, but we shouldn't have to take any Arab shit about it.

[scott_harpell]

You know full-well what you said, but:

 

Peace was unpatriotic in 1775...

 

..and then when someone claimed what bullshit comparison that was your response was:

 

1941

Hey Iain... Mabe you can understand that it wasn't a comparison of the wars, but a comparison of the attitudes of the citizens of the U.S. Namely, those in 1776 and 1941 weren't self loathing euro-leg-humping sychophants. But hey! If you can find somewhere that I said that the rev war was like Iraq, I will concede.

[JoshK]

JoshK... why do you hat the U.S. so much?

 

WTF are you talking about? When have I ever said I hate the US? I love my country which is exactly why I want our shitass president out of here. I'm in no way proud of what our soldiers did either. Calling them out for that kind of crap is hardly against my country.

[gotterdamerung]

If you spent some time in Najaf I think you would have a different perspective my friend. The only thing we should be ashamed of is not doing enough to try to finish this thing quicker. WE should have come harder, more violently and with more troops. Closed this thing down once and for all, but instead we came with arrogance. Ski on.

[JoshK]

If you spent some time in Najaf I think you would have a different perspective my friend. Ski on.

 

A different perspective on what exactly? That humilating prisoners is ok? Nope, there is something called the moral high road...no need to stoop to the level of these barbaric fucks.

[iain]

Hey Iain... Mabe you can understand that it wasn't a comparison of the wars, but a comparison of the attitudes of the citizens of the U.S. Namely, those in 1776 and 1941 weren't self loathing euro-leg-humping sychophants. But hey! If you can find somewhere that I said that the rev war was like Iraq, I will concede.

I really don't need to write any more. You wrote what you wrote and you can get semantic over it if you like, but I won't waste anyone's time further by responding. I am surprised, however, that you did not include some childish quip about my lack of reading comprehension in that last post.

[gotterdamerung]

Your temerity emboldens your enemy. The moral high road is a bunch of words that you speak 10,000 miles from the events at hand. There is no moral high ground in war. Only strength and savagery. You need to think hard about that. If you want this thing to end you will campaign to crush your enemies with might and resolve.

[scott_harpell]

Hey Iain... Mabe you can understand that it wasn't a comparison of the wars, but a comparison of the attitudes of the citizens of the U.S. Namely, those in 1776 and 1941 weren't self loathing euro-leg-humping sychophants. But hey! If you can find somewhere that I said that the rev war was like Iraq, I will concede.

I really don't need to write any more. You wrote what you wrote and you can get semantic over it if you like, but I won't waste anyone's time further by responding. I am surprised, however, that you did not include some childish quip about my lack of reading comprehension in that last post.

 

Well obviously it is needed iain. I did not say anything comparing the three wars. Did I? No. That is not semantics.

[Jim]

It is a clever means to try to stifle debate. All you have to do is claim someone is unpatriotic, harming the troops, blah, blah, blah to keep them from pointing out the obvious conflict between "American values" and some American actions.

 

There was another General on 60 minutes this past Sunday repeating the argument that it was the civilians in the government (Rummy, Wolfy, Pearl, Abrams) who were pushing for this war. The military guys wanted no part in it because they new what a Pandora's box it would become with a third less of the troops they considered minimum. This admin needs to get booted for such poor planning, the lies they sold to the public, and for the current mess that could have been avoided.

[JoshK]

yes, strength and savagery when actually fighting is one thing, committing it against prisoners is an entirely differnt matter. This is the reason the geneva convention came to being. Your defense of the acts is just stupid. There is one thing I agree with you on, however...the whole apology to the arab world thing. We needed to take the stand on that and say we are very sorry there was mistreatment, but fix your own society before you talk. That part of the word gets a blank check do to whatever you want as long as you support our need for oil. As you said, Saudi Arabia.

[scott_harpell]

It is a clever means to try to stifle debate. All you have to do is claim someone is unpatriotic, harming the troops, blah, blah, blah to keep them from pointing out the obvious conflict between "American values" and some American actions.

 

This might be true if you had heard at least something positive about the country from the man. Can anyone here recall any? Did Josh ever say, "Hey! That is good policy?" Jim, you are implying that my premise is based on merely one quote?

[Jim]

It is a clever means to try to stifle debate. All you have to do is claim someone is unpatriotic, harming the troops, blah, blah, blah to keep them from pointing out the obvious conflict between "American values" and some American actions.

 

This might be true if you had heard at least something positive about the country from the man. Can anyone here recall any? Did Josh ever say, "Hey! That is good policy?" Jim, you are implying that my premise is based on merely one quote?

 

No - I'm implying that its faulty logic and unpatrotic to stifle debate.

[JoshK]

It is a clever means to try to stifle debate. All you have to do is claim someone is unpatriotic, harming the troops, blah, blah, blah to keep them from pointing out the obvious conflict between "American values" and some American actions.

 

This might be true if you had heard at least something positive about the country from the man. Can anyone here recall any? Did Josh ever say, "Hey! That is good policy?" Jim, you are implying that my premise is based on merely one quote?

 

The absence of me congragulating George Bush on what of his asslick policies equals me thinking my country sucks? You, sir, are a moron.

[scott_harpell]

It is a clever means to try to stifle debate. All you have to do is claim someone is unpatriotic, harming the troops, blah, blah, blah to keep them from pointing out the obvious conflict between "American values" and some American actions.

 

This might be true if you had heard at least something positive about the country from the man. Can anyone here recall any? Did Josh ever say, "Hey! That is good policy?" Jim, you are implying that my premise is based on merely one quote?

 

The absence of me congragulating George Bush on what of his asslick policies equals me thinking my country sucks? You, sir, are a moron.

 

Why do you people always put words into my mouth? Did I say this? No. Did I mean this? No.

[gotterdamerung]

yes, strength and savagery when actually fighting is one thing, committing it against prisoners is an entirely differnt matter. This is the reason the geneva convention came to being. Your defense of the acts is just stupid. There is one thing I agree with you on, however...the whole apology to the arab world thing. We needed to take the stand on that and say we are very sorry there was mistreatment, but fix your own society before you talk. That part of the word gets a blank check do to whatever you want as long as you support our need for oil. As you said, Saudi Arabia.

 

I think you have misintepreted what I wrote. I am not defending their acts. I am simply stating that I think they were blown out of proportion to the actual damage they caused those individuals. My original proposition was that they were being punished for RAPING another inmate in a systematic manner. For that one individual it was probably more torturous than the punishment the perpetrators had to endure.

[JoshK]

It is a clever means to try to stifle debate. All you have to do is claim someone is unpatriotic, harming the troops, blah, blah, blah to keep them from pointing out the obvious conflict between "American values" and some American actions.

 

This might be true if you had heard at least something positive about the country from the man. Can anyone here recall any? Did Josh ever say, "Hey! That is good policy?" Jim, you are implying that my premise is based on merely one quote?

 

The absence of me congragulating George Bush on what of his asslick policies equals me thinking my country sucks? You, sir, are a moron.

 

Why do you people always put words into my mouth? Did I say this? No. Did I mean this? No.

 

Then you still haven't said exactly why I "hate my country"

[Peter_Puget]

Graduation Day

 

But here in these photos from Abu Ghraib, you have every Islamic fundamentalist stereotype of Western culture -- all nicely arranged in one hideous image-- imperial arrogance, sexual depravity ... and gender equality.

 

 

What I have finally come to understand, sadly and irreversibly, is that the kind of feminism based on an assumption of moral superiority on the part of women is a lazy and self-indulgent form of feminism.

 

bio

[j_b]

I am simply stating that I think they were blown out of proportion to the actual damage they caused those individuals.

 

torture "lite", beatings, rape, people turning up dead ... and all these videos the admnistration does not want us to see ...

[Fairweather]

Question for Gotterdamerung:

 

Have you had any dealings with The Kurds? What are your thoughts? I am worried that these people are going to get screwed when we eventually pull out. It seems like they have upheld their end of the deal they made with us.

 

I don't feel comparable angst for the Shea or Sunni. Should I?

[Dru]

yes, strength and savagery when actually fighting is one thing, committing it against prisoners is an entirely differnt matter. This is the reason the geneva convention came to being. Your defense of the acts is just stupid. There is one thing I agree with you on, however...the whole apology to the arab world thing. We needed to take the stand on that and say we are very sorry there was mistreatment, but fix your own society before you talk. That part of the word gets a blank check do to whatever you want as long as you support our need for oil. As you said, Saudi Arabia.

 

I think you have misintepreted what I wrote. I am not defending their acts. I am simply stating that I think they were blown out of proportion to the actual damage they caused those individuals. My original proposition was that they were being punished for RAPING another inmate in a systematic manner. For that one individual it was probably more torturous than the punishment the perpetrators had to endure.

 

from this report it sounds like the abuse went beyond "punishing" one group of inmates for alleged abuse. and even if true does this mean by the same logic the abusing MPs should themselves be raped and so on? where do you end it?