Michael Moore

[j_b]

we also all know that you have lots of time to waste on empty one-liners and put downs. we also all know that you think having the last post amounts to evidence of 'winning' the argument. so this time make an effort: no 'switch and bait', no 'dodge and insult'. say something new and substantiated by facts for once.

[Martlet]

we also all know that you have lots of time to waste on empty one-liners and put downs. we also all know that you think having the last post amounts to evidence of 'winning' the argument. so this time make an effort: no 'switch and bait', no 'dodge and insult'. say something new and substantiated by facts for once.

 

I understand you are going to great lengths to not have to support your argument or answer the questions. It must be horrible sitting there knowing you are dead wrong, have talked yourself into a corner, and don't know how to get out.

 

Anytime you feel like addressing the issue, let me know.

[scott_harpell]

j_b... read the articles... also... you state that otehr film makers have created such stories, but they do not call them documentaries and they do not make comedies out of tradgedies.

[scott_harpell]

you can say that he distort facts or show flawed logic all day long, until you show specifically that it is the case, it'll remain an unsubstantiated opinion

 

JB... I posted the ACTUAL speech from Heston... compare that with the creative editing in the movie and you will see the unethical doc practices that we are talking about.

[j_b]

j_b... read the articles... also... you state that otehr film makers have created such stories, but they do not call them documentaries and they do not make comedies out of tradgedies.

 

i have read a couple of articles this time around as well as last time we had this argument and i have not seen anything really damning: ergo the titan 4 thingy. if you have anything else more specific, shoot (with enough details so that it's not a rehash of the usual unsubstantiated accusations)

 

"land without bread" by bunuel is a documentary that depicts tragedy (starving peasants). there are certainly many other examples.

 

tragicomedy is a very common art form. there are countless examples in film: "life is beautiful" by roberto benini, mike leigh pretty much only makes tragicomedies (secrets and lies, topsy-turvy, life is sweet, etc ...

 

moreover bfc has different tones throughout. it is tragicomic but also plain serious.

[j_b]

JB... I posted the ACTUAL speech from Heston... compare that with the creative editing in the movie and you will see the unethical doc practices that we are talking about.

 

moore posted the actual speech from heston and here is what he says about it:

 

"Heston took his NRA show to Denver and did and said exactly what we recounted. From the end of my narration setting up Heston's speech in Denver, with my words, "a big pro-gun rally," every word out of Charlton Heston's mouth was uttered right there in Denver, just 10 days after the Columbine tragedy. But don't take my word – read the transcript of his whole speech. Heston devotes the entire speech to challenging the Denver mayor and mocking the mayor's pleas that the NRA "don't come here." Far from deliberately editing the film to make Heston look worse, I chose to leave most of this out and not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.

 

Why are these gun nuts upset that their brave NRA leader's words are in my film? You'd think they would be proud of the things he said. Except, when intercut with the words of a grieving father (whose son died at Columbine and happened to be speaking in a protest that same weekend Heston was at the convention center), suddenly Charlton Heston doesn't look so good does he? Especially to the people of Denver (and, the following year, to the people of Flint) who were still in shock over the tragedies when Heston showed up.

 

As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image – hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media, or, as one article put it, "the mantra of dedicated gun owners" which they "wear on T-shirts, stamp it on the outside of envelopes, e-mail it on the Internet and sometimes shout it over the phone.". Are they now embarrassed by this sick, repulsive image and the words that accompany it? "

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

 

actual links to speech on webpage

[scott_harpell]

bt does bunel use comedy to illustrate his points? I must be old school because i feel that death deserves reverence... also i just posted the whole speech that Heston spoke... read it and you WILL see where the edits were made. JUST READ IT!

[rbw1966]

rbw1966: you said don't think for a minute that you support Michael Moore. So you don't support Michael Moore (at least not fully). But do you know why? Your answer(s) will be neither here nor there. They will be based on your belief of what is true and what is not true. Unless, of course, you merely don't support him because he's a fat slobby looking dork or because he makes six to eight figures per year and you don't.

 

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner Klenke. The short answer is I don't support Moore's views for essentially the reasons outline by Will above. He's manipulative, deliberately deceitful and panders to that American lust for the absurd, a la Rush. Imagine how that Bank scene would have played out had it not been carefully edited?

 

I tend to be pretty skeptical of extreme views from both ends of the political spectrum.

 

And, I think Bush lied.

[Martlet]

i have read a couple of articles this time around as well as last time we had this argument and i have not seen anything really damning:

 

What about this? You've dodged every point I've made.

 

Fact: Bowling splices together two different election ads, one run by the Bush campaign (featuring a revolving door, and not even mentioning Horton) and another run by an independent expenditure campaign (naming Horton, and showing footage from which it can be seen that he is black). At the end, the ad ala' Moore has the customary note that it was paid for by the Bush-Quayle campaign. Moore intones "whether you're a psychotic killer or running for president of the United States, the one thing you can always count on is white America's fear of the black man." There is nothing to reveal that most of the ad just seen (and all of it that was relevant to Moore's claim) was not the Bush-Quayle ad, which didn't even name Horton.

 

Fact: Apparently unsatisfied with splicing the ads, Bowling's editors added a subtitle "Willie Horton released. Then kills again."

 

Fact: Ben Fitz also noted that Bowling's editors didn't bother to research the events before doctoring the ads. Horton's second arrest was not for murder. (The second set of charges were aggravated assault and rape).

 

Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting (see links below), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.

 

 

Fact: At Denver, the NRA cancelled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' voting meeting -- that could not be cancelled because the state law governing nonprofits required that it be held. [No way to change location, since under NY law you have to give 10 days' advance notice of that to the members, there were upwards of 4,000,000 members -- and Columbine happened 11 days before the scheduled meeting.] As a newspaper reported:

 

In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars, workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and festivities are canceled.

 

All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla., and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention Center.

 

Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting.

 

The NRA convention April 30-May 2 was expected to draw 22,000 members and give the city a $17.9 million economic boost.

 

"But the tragedy in Littleton last Tuesday calls upon us to take steps, along with dozens of other planned public events, to modify our schedule to show our profound sympathy and respect for the families and communities in the Denver area in their time of great loss," Heston and LaPierre wrote.

 

 

Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was his gesture of gratitude upon his being given a handmade musket, at that annual meeting.

 

Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme.

 

Moore's fabrication here cannot be described by any polite term. It is a lie, a fraud, and a few other things. Carrying it out required a LOT of editing to mislead the viewer, as I will show below. I transcribed Heston's speech as Moore has it, and compared it to a news agency's transcript, color coding the passages. CLICK HERE for the comparison, with links to the original transcript.

 

Moore has actually taken audio of seven sentences, from five different parts of the speech, and a section given in a different speech entirely, and spliced them together. Each edit is cleverly covered by inserting a still or video footage for a few seconds.

 

First, right after the weeping victims, Moore puts on Heston's "I have only five words for you . . . cold dead hands" statement, making it seem directed at them. As noted above, it's actually a thank-you speech given a year later in North Carolina.

 

Moore then has an interlude -- a visual of a billboard and his narration. This is vital. He can't go directly to Heston's real Denver speech. If he did that, you might ask why Heston in mid-speech changed from a purple tie and lavender shirt to a white shirt and red tie, and the background draperies went from maroon to blue. Moore has to separate the two segments.

 

etc etc etc....

 

Still waiting for a response.....

[Beck]

I haven't read all this drivel about Michael moores filmmaking.

 

Disney choosing not to distribute a controversial film has been taken care of, the two brothers that run Miramax and put up $5 million for the film will distribute it on their own, shopping around for another film company to distribute it. It goes to the Cannes film festival to be shown. Chances are good it we will have the chance to see it before November.

 

On a side note, another film critical of the US government, "The Panama Deception," was blocked by federal courts for a decade before winning the rights to be be shown- it won the Academy Award for Best Documentary that year.

[Martlet]

I haven't read all this drivel about Michael moores filmmaking.

 

Translated as: "I don't have the answers to any of these questions either, so I'm going to ignore them. Since I can't resist posting, I'll just add this completely irrelevant comment."

 

Thanks for the info, Beck. Care to address the questions now?

[Jim]

My favorite scene in that movie is Heston tying himself up in knots over the "cultural differences" statements. Talk about painting oneself into a corner. It's pretty amazing to see the right-winger back-pedalling from the type of talk they put out for their own consumption when it gets a good public airing.

[Martlet]

My favorite scene in that movie is Heston tying himself up in knots over the "cultural differences" statements. Talk about painting oneself into a corner. It's pretty amazing to see the right-winger back-pedalling from the type of talk they put out for their own consumption when it gets a good public airing.

 

Translated as:

 

I can't address the questions either, so I'm just going to leave a hit and run comment, before slinking off. Maybe I'll come back and leave another.

[j_b]

j_b... read the articles... also... you state that otehr film makers have created such stories, but they do not call them documentaries and they do not make comedies out of tradgedies.

 

is there a sacred golden rule which says that tragicomedy is not appropriate in documentary film making? isn't tragicomedy part of life as we know it? if it wasn't why would it have evolved to such a popular mode of communication in art as well as everyday exchanges?

 

as for whether no documentary film makers has used tragicomedy before moore, i seriously doubt it. just give me time, i'll think of one.

[Jim]

My favorite scene in that movie is Heston tying himself up in knots over the "cultural differences" statements. Talk about painting oneself into a corner. It's pretty amazing to see the right-winger back-pedalling from the type of talk they put out for their own consumption when it gets a good public airing.

 

Translated as:

 

I can't address the questions either, so I'm just going to leave a hit and run comment, before slinking off. Maybe I'll come back and leave another.

 

Translated as: I agree with Heston's statements but I'm too afraid to say so in public OR I diagree with his ideas but don't want to tarnish the big gun guy.

[j_b]

I posted the ACTUAL speech from Heston... compare that with the creative editing in the movie and you will see the unethical doc practices that we are talking about.

 

i have read it as well as listened to the 'nra in littleton' section in bfc (on moore's site). i personally do not find anything unethical about the editing. bfc does not change heston's message: "despite the mayor asking us not to come here, we are here because it's our right". sure, he does not have the entire speech, but then again, bfc is not meant to be an nra platform. editing of this kind (chopping up of interviews) is common practice in docu making as well as news. it is not unethical as long as the message is not changed, and bfc does not change heston's message. you are really making a mountain out of mole hill.

[Martlet]

I posted the ACTUAL speech from Heston... compare that with the creative editing in the movie and you will see the unethical doc practices that we are talking about.

 

i have read it as well as listened to the 'nra in littleton' section in bfc (on moore's site). i personally do not find anything unethical about the editing. bfc does not change heston's message: "despite the mayor asking us not to come here, we are here because it's our right". sure, he does not have the entire speech, but then again, bfc is not meant to be an nra platform. editing of this kind (chopping up of interviews) is common practice in docu making as well as news. it is not unethical as long as the message is not changed, and bfc does not change heston's message. you are really making a mountain out of mole hill.

 

bfc DOES change Heston's message by splicing two seperate speeches and alluding they are the same. Then takes it a step further by insinuating a speech given a year previously was in fact given right after 9/11.

 

I understand you unable to dispute the facts I raised, so you must continue to ignore them. Feel free to admit you're heads up your ass and bow out of the conversation anytime. It's getting to be SOP with you.

[jjd]

I understand you unable to dispute the facts I raised, so you must continue to ignore them. Feel free to admit you're heads up your ass and bow out of the conversation anytime. It's getting to be SOP with you.

 

Nice spelling-you must have gone to a public school.

[eternalX]

When I saw <i> Bowling </i> I thought it was both amusing and interesting. For one, I was sick of hearing how MM and KMFDM and Quake were responsible for the tragedy instead of a host of other things. The whole lawsuit against these artists was ridiculous and just an attempt to deflect blame from the parents onto places with deep pockets.

 

But as much as Moore whines about other people's agendas, he's most certainly got one himself and so you have to watch these films with a grain of salt. the parts i did not like were

 

1. The cheap ending. Look. Columbine wasn't Heston's fault. The movie doesn't really draw any conclusions on WHY we in modern America have such a high murder rate compared to other modern countries (somewhere around 5 times more). Ending with Heston was an easy way out of the movie, despite how much of a jackass the d00d is.

 

2. I feel like the kid taken to Walmart was exploited. He just wasn't old enough to decide what he wanted to do and it seemed like he was just gonig along with Moore. It felt cheap. It did however work. Whether it has any real effect on the world, I don't know.

 

3. I'm sorry, the welfare system might be fucked up and all, but I don't think you sholud blame Dick Clark for taking part in a government program.

 

Othrewise I enjoyed the movie. I recommended it to others. But you can't take this stuff as gospel either. Moore is trying to sell books and movies and he's appealing to a slightly more stoner community.

 

Cheers

[Martlet]

I understand you unable to dispute the facts I raised, so you must continue to ignore them. Feel free to admit you're heads up your ass and bow out of the conversation anytime. It's getting to be SOP with you.

 

Nice spelling-you must have gone to a public school.

 

Nice dodge. The fact remains, regardless how I've spelled it, you can't debate it. Yep, my public school education, bad grammar and all, has intellectually beaten you down. How's it feel?

[j_b]

anybody interested in the willie horton/revolving doors ad campaign should read the following:

 

http://www.insidepolitics.org/ps111/independentads.html

 

summary: bush/quayle ran an ad accusing dukakis of letting murderers go free. an independent group (americans for bush ...) ran an ad on the theme with a mugshot of horton (black convict whereas of the 19 "prisoners" making their way through the "revolving door" of the Massachusetts penal system, 16 were white, two black and one Latino).

 

"Larry McCarthy, the NSPAC media consultant who worked for Americans for Bush and created "Weekend Passes," was a past senior vice president of Ailes Communications, Inc. (ACI), the main media consultant for the Bush campaign. According to an affidavit filed by McCarthy, he had worked at ACI prior to January, 1987. After that time, he continued to handle projects on "a contractual basis with ACI" through December, 1987, at which point he became Senator Robert Dole's media consultant."

 

"The FEC investigation furthermore uncovered that Jesse Raiford of Raiford Communications, Inc., a former employee of ACI who was responsible for post-production editing of the "Weekend Passes" spot, "simultaneously received compensation from NSPAC and the Bush campaign, and that he had expended NSPAC funds for the production of the Willie Horton ad."

[jjd]

Nice dodge. The fact remains, regardless how I've spelled it, you can't debate it. Yep, my public school education, bad grammar and all, has intellectually beaten you down. How's it feel?

 

Hey dipshit, when exactly have I bothered to engage you in any intellectual discourse? You ASSUME I am a "moonbat" as you call it. The fact is, you know nothing of my views. I just think you are an ignorant moron and I like to point out that fact every chance I get. Unfortunately, I don't have your luxury of being able to sit in front of my computer "defecating from the 'mouth' ad infintum." Anyway, have a nice day loser.

[Martlet]

I'd be interested in you responding to my quote. I won't hold my breath, though. Nice dodge, btw. What's that, your 4th? How's the beating feel?

[Martlet]

Hey dipshit, when exactly have I bothered to engage you in any intellectual discourse? You ASSUME I am a "moonbat" as you call it. The fact is, you know nothing of my views. I just think you are an ignorant moron and I like to point out that fact every chance I get. Unfortunately, I don't have your luxury of being able to sit in front of my computer "defecating from the 'mouth' ad infintum." Anyway, have a nice day loser.

 

You can't counter my points, so you ignore them. How's the intellectual beat down my public school education is giving you feel?

 

Hurts, huh?

[jjd]

I'd be interested in you responding to my quote.

 

What quote?