Michael Moore

[scott_harpell]

This is what happens when alternative views actually get anywhere near mainstream media coverage.

 

Is alternative a euphamism for fraudulent or something?

[klenke]

You know we're all hypocrites when you factor in everything that we do and say and are and aspire to. None of us is so pure that he has two firm legs to stand on in his principles (the Amish notwithstanding; but I'd venture to say none of us are Amish). The point is that none of us can ever be wholly right or wholly wrong. We grasp at belief, belief in what is true. We don't grasp at truth.

 

Josh: snopes is not to be taken as gospel. Sure, it's fun and stuff. But woe is he who reads entries on that website and believes everything he reads.

 

rbw1966: you said don't think for a minute that you support Michael Moore. So you don't support Michael Moore (at least not fully). But do you know why? Your answer(s) will be neither here nor there. They will be based on your belief of what is true and what is not true. Unless, of course, you merely don't support him because he's a fat slobby looking dork or because he makes six to eight figures per year and you don't.

 

Why do I think Michael Moore is full of shit? I think he's full of shit because he's always rubbing me the wrong way. I liked Roger and Me but I was more naive back then. I think he's full of shit because he lacks respectable behavior when he should show it (e.g., political grandstanding at the Oscars where said activities are unnecessary and unwarranted). I think he's full of shit for a lot of the reasons Harpell has elaborated on. He strikes me as a guy who spins/edits information to make a point. He is the master of taking things out of context.

 

There. There is your moderate viewpoint. Thank you. Thank you very much. Klenke has left the building.

[marylou]

I loved what he did at the Oscars.

 

Like him or not, the guy has backbone.

[Squid]

I love Micheal Moore.

 

He says the shit that needs to be said. Often, he's over-reaching, but a bass-ackward place like this, where the media is controlled by the monied few, a voice like his is necessary.

 

Where Klenke is offended by Moore's 'political grandstanding where said activities are unwarranted'- I would suggest that his motives are sincere- the dude is trying to change the world, every fucking day. There is no 'downtime' for your morals, no day when they aren't necessary.

Knowing where Moore comes from, his background working for years at a Podunk weekly in Flint, there's really no way you can plausibly claim that his motives are cynical. The guy was fighting the good fight when it made him poor, and he's doing it now that he's made the big time. Good for him.

 

To Micheal Moore and every other asshole who won't shut up (JoshK!)

[scott_harpell]

He is not trying to change the world. He is trying to make a buck. Has he ever given one constructive idea or has he merely mired him self in complacency and self loathing? He is just a whiner. His grandstanding is more promotional in nature as was his attempt to forge the deal with disney which he knew was not going through over a year ago. All hail the mighty dollar!

[ryland_moore]

Ryland, didn't you see this link that was posted?

 

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm

I don't know if a site titled: Urban Legends" with "rumors" in its link title is a reputable source......

[Squid]

You're undermining yourself here, Scott. Go back and look at the man's history.

You're not doing your arguement any favors.

[scott_harpell]

No... Look at the film bowling for columbine and read the facts. he is a liar, a plaigerist a sensationalist and he is two faced. Are you going to refute the lockheed point? try it! how about the speech editing? I dare you.

[klenke]

Squid, Marylou, et al,

 

If Michael Moore is so morally correct and truly trying to save the world (aren't we all according to our own beliefs?), do you think if he ran for political office he would be elected? Would you liberals be all Gung-ho for the guy? In my estimation he is no politician. He's a business man that uses shock value to make money. Does he take $500,000 per year of the money he makes and donate it to help feed the starving in Africa? Should he have to? What does he do with all his money? Like I said in my previous post, no one is so pure that they aren't to some degree a hypocrite. This is America, this is reality, this is humanity: we have all got to look out for number one first...unless you're a hero sacrificing your life for the good of the many.

 

And, even if you liked what he had to say at the Oscars, it was still not the right place to get on a soapbox. Be gracious, accept your award, thank whoever helped you, and exit. The political statements have nothing to do with Academy Awards, nothing whatsoever. If you went to a baseball game, would you want them to stop the game for a minute so the stadium announcer could grab a microphone and air his political opinion just because he had the technology to do so. To you people, everything's okay as long as what is said jives with your own opinions. You're willing to accept that the medium was the wrong one for the sake of getting your everlasting message out.

 

Also, it means nothing to me that Moore is from Podunk, MI. He could be from anywhere. If you admire a man for where he comes from not who he is or what he has done, you need to try and be more profound.

 

[scott_harpell]

... or are you going to embrace anything that embodies your ideals regardless of where it came from... even if it came out of the thin air?

[j_b]

There. There is your moderate viewpoint. Thank you. Thank you very much. Klenke has left the building.

 

since when is it moderate to support policies responsible for the death of 1000's of iraqis? since when is it moderate to justify the formalization of apartheid in israel via the building of a segregationist wall?

 

give us a break, will ya? we are all competent here to decide how your opinions stack in the spectrum of respectability without your attempting to pull the covers of moderacy to your side.

[Squid]

Squid, Marylou, et al,

 

If Michael Moore is so morally correct and truly trying to save the world (aren't we all according to our own beliefs?), do you think if he ran for political office he would be elected? Would you liberals be all Gung-ho for the guy?

 

Being an effective story-teller does not translate into being a good leader. As you say..

In my estimation he is no politician. He's a business man that uses shock value to make money. Does he take $500,000 per year of the money he makes and donate it to help feed the starving in Africa? Should he have to? What does he do with all his money? Like I said in my previous post, no one is so pure that they aren't to some degree a hypocrite. This is America, this is reality, this is humanity: we have all got to look out for number one first...unless you're a hero sacrificing your life for the good of the many.

 

The only moral way to live is to die for you beliefs? Isn't that a little dramatic?

 

And, even if you liked what he had to say at the Oscars, it was still not the right place to get on a soapbox. Be gracious, accept your award, thank whoever helped you, and exit. The political statements have nothing to do with Academy Awards, nothing whatsoever. If you went to a baseball game, would you want them to stop the game for a minute so the stadium announcer could grab a microphone and air his political opinion just because he had the technology to do so.

Bullshit. He's no Brad Pitt -he wasn't there because he's looks good on camera. He's there precisely becuase at least some people thought what he has to say has value. To accept accolades for his criticism of past events and yet remain silent in the face of current events would be hypocritical.

 

To you people, everything's okay as long as what is said jives with your own opinions. You're willing to accept that the medium was the wrong one for the sake of getting your everlasting message out.

whatever, Klenke. You're getting extra belay slack on Sunday.

Also, it means nothing to me that Moore is from Podunk, MI. He could be from anywhere. If you admire a man for where he comes from not who he is or what he has done, you need to try and be more profound.

Damn, it's like arguing with my couch. You're missing the point again, Klenke. I'm not implying it's important where he's from geographically- it's where he's from morally and politically. He's been consistent and on point from way back when, back when it would've been laughable to call him a money grubbing capitalist. Keep up, son.

[scott_harpell]

There. There is your moderate viewpoint. Thank you. Thank you very much. Klenke has left the building.

 

since when is it moderate to support policies responsible for the death of 1000's of iraqis? since when is it moderate to justify the formalization of apartheid in israel via the building of a segregationist wall?

 

give us a break, will ya? we are all competent here to decide how your opinions stack in the spectrum of respectability without your attempting to pull the covers of moderacy to your side.

 

...and michael moore has made millions off all these tradgedies. You think he is any better than your war time scapegoats?

[Squid]

Short answer: Hell, yes!

 

Next question?

[klenke]

j_b: Which Iraqi policy that kills Iraqis are you purporting that I am in support of? Refresh my memory.

 

I do believe my viewpoint on the Israel wall is a moderate one. But that's my belief and probably what a lot of moderates would be in line with (conjecture).

 

Where as I can be swayed to one side or the other, sadly, you cannot. You're definitely too liberal to understand persuasion other than you attempting to persuade others to yours. Ergo, right back at you: give us a break, will ya?

[JoshK]

... or are you going to embrace anything that embodies your ideals regardless of where it came from... even if it came out of the thin air?

 

You keep blabbing on about his lies in bowling for columbine? Please show an exact lie or shutup.

[scott_harpell]

it's where he's from morally and politically.

 

Yeah limos and caviar and willing to desecrate the deaths of others to make a buck through lying and defacing others? If that is who you look up to, I feel quite sorry for you sir.

[j_b]

considering the conservative bile expressed toward m.moore, it certainly appears that he is saying the right things.

 

and since scott keeps repeating the same lies about bfc and the titan 4, i'll reproduce what moore has to say about it below:

 

"Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and other weapons systems for almost half a century. In the 50s, workers at the Littleton facility constructed the first Titan intercontinental ballistic missile, designed to unleash a nuclear warhead on the Soviet Union; in the mid-80s, they were partially assembling MX missiles, instruments for the minuteman ICBM, a space laser weapon called Zenith Star, and a Star Wars program known as Brilliant Pebbles.

 

In the full, unedited interview I did with the Lockheed spokesman, he told me that Lockheed started building nuclear missiles in Littleton and "played a role in the development of Peacekeeper MX Missiles."

 

As for what's currently manufactured in Littleton, McCollum told me, "They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security satellites, some we can't talk about." (see him say it here)

 

Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces." (view source here).

 

That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss."

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

[scott_harpell]

The Lockheed-Martin plant near Columbine makes nuclear missiles.

 

? The plant does not make nuclear missiles. It makes rockets for launching satellites.

 

...in 10 seconds... need any more?

[Squid]

Yep, I'll need a lot more to convince my that Micheal Moore is on a deliberate campaign to lie and deceive.

Keep 'em coming.

[klenke]

And waiting and waiting and waiting....

 

j_b: still waiting for you to answer the question: which policy of killing 1,000's of Iraqis am I in support of? I just can't remember which one, if any. Since you seem to know more about what I think than I do, I'm asking you.

[JoshK]

The Lockheed-Martin plant near Columbine makes nuclear missiles.

 

? The plant does not make nuclear missiles. It makes rockets for launching satellites.

 

...in 10 seconds... need any more?

 

"The Truth: Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and other weapons systems for almost half a century. In the 50s, workers at the Littleton facility constructed the first Titan intercontinental ballistic missile, designed to unleash a nuclear warhead on the Soviet Union; in the mid-80s, they were partially assembling MX missiles, instruments for the minuteman ICBM, a space laser weapon called Zenith Star, and a Star Wars program known as Brilliant Pebbles.

 

In the full, unedited interview I did with the Lockheed spokesman, he told me that Lockheed started building nuclear missiles in Littleton and "played a role in the development of Peacekeeper MX Missiles."

 

As for what's currently manufactured in Littleton, McCollum told me, "They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security

satellites, some we can't talk about." (see him say it here) "

 

Well, there goes that one. Keep it comin' indeed

[scott_harpell]

considering the conservative bile expressed toward m.moore, it certainly appears that he is saying the right things.

 

and since scott keeps repeating the same lies about bfc and the titan 4, i'll reproduce what moore has to say about it below:

 

"Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and other weapons systems for almost half a century. In the 50s, workers at the Littleton facility constructed the first Titan intercontinental ballistic missile, designed to unleash a nuclear warhead on the Soviet Union; in the mid-80s, they were partially assembling MX missiles, instruments for the minuteman ICBM, a space laser weapon called Zenith Star, and a Star Wars program known as Brilliant Pebbles.

 

In the full, unedited interview I did with the Lockheed spokesman, he told me that Lockheed started building nuclear missiles in Littleton and "played a role in the development of Peacekeeper MX Missiles."

 

As for what's currently manufactured in Littleton, McCollum told me, "They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security satellites, some we can't talk about." (see him say it here)

 

Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces." (view source here).

 

That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss."

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

 

Well that is what Moore has to say... lets hear another view

David Hardy found out that after Bowling was released someone checked and found that the Lockheed-Martin plant in the interview does not build weapons-type missiles; it makes weather and communication satellites there. In response to one Moore detractor, McCollum (the interviewee) wrote: "Although other units of Lockheed Martin Corporation elsewhere in the country produce weapons to support the defense of the U.S., we make no weapons at the Littleton-area facility Moore visited." Wups! Pretty embarrassing revelation huh? I wonder what Moore has to say about this terrible fumble?

 

[JoshK]

So you are arguing that even though the plant made missiles for 50 years and just recently Lockheed switched it's missile making factory to sell rockets for spy sattilites instead (we can't make new nuke missiles as part of the Start program) that it isn't a missile factory?

 

Keep it comin...

[scott_harpell]

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