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tele_nut

Fighting terrorism

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It's called being ruthless, efficient, and willing to take criticism from the rest of the world without backing down or being ashamed of what you want for your nation.

 

From How to beat the terrorists

 

Palestinians Turn on Hamas

StrategyPage: Palestinians Turn on Hamas

 

Israel has managed to terrorize the terrorists. Killing two leaders of the major Palestinian terrorist group Hamas within a month has shaken up the organization. But it’s not just the death of the two leaders. Over the last few months, dozens of Israeli raids have arrested lower ranking leaders and technical experts, and shut down workshops and supply dumps for bomb making. The smuggling of explosives and weapons into the Palestinian territories has been interrupted with greater frequency.

But Hamas faces a larger problem. The Palestinian people are becoming disillusioned with the terror tactics. The main reason for the disillusionment is poverty. Before the current “intifada” (uprising) began in late 2000, some 20 percent of Palestinians lived in poverty. Now that figure is over 80 percent. Per capita income for Palestinians is about a thousand dollars (although 30 percent of that comes from foreign aid). Business investment in the Palestinian territories (and their 3.5 million population) is only about ten percent of what it was before the intifada. The Palestinian economy depends on Israel for jobs and trade. By sending suicide bombers into Israel, the movement of Palestinians and Palestinian goods into Israel was interrupted.

 

Hamas has cultivated support among Palestinians with their extensive social welfare operations. But this work is supported by charitable donations, and a portion of that money is diverted to terrorist operations. So, in the last few months, Israel has interrupted the flow of money to Hamas. This has resulted in social programs being stalled, or even stopped. Hamas has lost public support because of this. Palestinians are becoming less grateful to Hamas for helping them get through their poverty, and increasingly blaming Hamas for causing all the misfortune.

 

Hamas, and Palestinian, media continue to hammer away with the need to destroy Israel, and repeat allegations that Jews are trying to take over the world, the Nazi extermination campaign against Jews during World War II was a myth and that the Christian world is making war on the Islamic community and Moslems must fight back. But these stories are less often accepted by their audience. Palestinian opinion surveys (conducted by Palestinians) have been tracking this decline in support for the intifada. As a result of that, the Palestinian pollsters have been physically attacked by terrorist groups. This has further turned off Palestinians.

 

While popular support for Palestinian terrorists is declining, the terrorists themselves will not go away. Their inability to launch many suicide bomb attacks has not diminished the dedication of the remaining terrorists. But deprived of their much of their leadership and technical experts, there is greater risk that the terrorism will be more frequently turned against “disloyal” Palestinians. When the terrorists cannot strike out, they tend to look for internal enemies. Given the large number of Israeli informers in the Palestinian territories, and increasing number of Palestinians who do not agree with the terrorism tactics, Hamas and other terrorist groups have lots of potential victims close at hand.

 

 

This is interesting and logically satisfying. People all over the world eventually get tired of regimes that don’t provide the basic necessities of life. So far, though, it has seemed that the Palestinians have been immune from that tendency, with hatred of the Jews overriding the impulse for better government and economic development. I hope the tide is indeed turning but would be interested in seeing the evidence behind this one before getting too excited.

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I wouldn't get to excited about this. Where is the data coming from that says the Palestinians are ready to ditch Hamas and do what ever Isreal tells them to do? The Middle East has demonstrated for thousands of years that people raised amid violence have no problems with continuing the cycle. And it only takes a couple of hardliners to perpetuate it.

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Oh yea. Their real happy with Israel these days. Even if they don't support Hamas there is a lot of anger as they watch their houses and olive groves get plowed under for the giant wall w/o compensation, have to grovel through daily check points to attempt to get to work, or bury the inocent bystanders. Violence will not solve this problem on either side.

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It's called being ruthless, efficient, and willing to take criticism from the rest of the world without backing down or being ashamed of what you want for your nation.

 

This reads like it was lifted straight out of "Mein Kampf".

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It's called being ruthless, efficient, and willing to take criticism from the rest of the world without backing down or being ashamed of what you want for your nation.

 

This reads like it was lifted straight out of "Mein Kampf".

 

I read nothing in "Mein Kampf" that sounded like this, Murray. Have you read it?

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It's called being ruthless, efficient, and willing to take criticism from the rest of the world without backing down or being ashamed of what you want for your nation.

I wouldn't call it ruthless...the main point of the article that TeleNut quoted, it seems to me, is that the most effective tactics at reducing support for and the capability of Hamas are not "ruthless" violence and mayhem of the type Telenut sounds supportive of (targeted killings, harsh repression of the general pop., ghettoization of the occupied territoris behind fences, etc.). Instead, the article singles out several distinctly non-violent tactics that are smarter, more targeted on the perpetrators (rather punishing all Palestinians) and which are actually, perhaps, effective:

- arrest the brains and the leadership of violent groups

- intercept bomb making material in transit

- cut off the money supply that supports violent groups and their associated PR efforts

 

These are not ruthless tactics that the rest of the world is criticising, I don't think. The rest of the world is critical of targeted killings (instead of arresting the brains and the leaders, and trying them in a court of law), and blanket, arbitrary repression of Palestinians (instead of intercepting only illegal shipments, and stopping the money used by violent groups). So actually, Telenut, by posting and supporting this article, you are actually supporting solutions to the middle east conflict that are non-violent, and which follow the due process of the law. Kudos to you! Not ruthless at all!

 

Of course, what is good for the goose, is good for the gander. So it is time for the UN and the US to set and enforce targeted sanctions of Israeli leaders and the IDF...no more arms, no more money, and arrest those - the brains and the leadership - who have commited illegal, violent acts. Then maybe the Israeli population, many of whom are not supportive of the actions of their gov't, will rise up and demand peace.

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Yeah, about 25 years ago. I don't claim to have memorized every word verbatim, but if you boiled down the young Fuhrer's prescription for Germany it wouldn't sound very different from "being ruthless, efficient, and willing to take criticism from the rest of the world without backing down or being ashamed of what you want for the Fatherland."

 

I wasn't trying to accuse Tele Nut of plagiarism. I was just pointing out that if Hitler had been a better writer, he might have distilled his message down into just such a clear and succinct statement. Do you think that he would have disagreed with anything in that sentence?

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When Bush decided to exclude anyone who had been a member of the Baath Party, he set the stage for what we see now. To have ousted Saddam would have been enough, but Bush got greedy. I suppose that if we had captured or killed Saddam early on, it would have seemed safer to include the Baathists in the new regime.

 

We could have said to them, "you can be in or you can be out. If you're in, you have to play by these rules. You have let the other parties compete through a democratic process", etc. But we told them they were out. So they had absolutely nothing to lose by starting the insurgency. Some of our generals are suggesting we start bringing in these people where we need their experience and training. I say they are on the right track.

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Hey I've got a novel idea. Get Israel the fuck out of Palistine. Allow them to have their own state, at the pre 1960 borders. Burn down the settlements. And take the Israelis to international court anytime they go into the Palistinian state. If the Isrealis continue to bulldoze the palistinian olive orchards (which is their lively hood) then the UN should saction the shit out of them.

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Hey I've got a novel idea. Get Israel the fuck out of Palistine. Allow them to have their own state, at the pre 1960 borders. Burn down the settlements. And take the Israelis to international court anytime they go into the Palistinian state. If the Isrealis continue to bulldoze the palistinian olive orchards (which is their lively hood) then the UN should saction the shit out of them.

 

Some of those things have been attempted, but there's a hitch. Any time anyone submits a resolution to the Security Council that would sanction Israel in any meaningful way, Israel's staunchest ally uses its permanent seat on the Council to veto the resolution.

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When Bush decided to exclude anyone who had been a member of the Baath Party, he set the stage for what we see now. To have ousted Saddam would have been enough, but Bush got greedy. I suppose that if we had captured or killed Saddam early on, it would have seemed safer to include the Baathists in the new regime.

 

We could have said to them, "you can be in or you can be out. If you're in, you have to play by these rules. You have let the other parties compete through a democratic process", etc. But we told them they were out. So they had absolutely nothing to lose by starting the insurgency. Some of our generals are suggesting we start bringing in these people where we need their experience and training. I say they are on the right track.

 

Speak of the devil, it looks like the Baathists are being allowed in http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/22/iraq.baathist/index.html

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Hey I've got a novel idea. Get Israel the fuck out of Palistine. Allow them to have their own state, at the pre 1960 borders. Burn down the settlements. And take the Israelis to international court anytime they go into the Palistinian state. If the Isrealis continue to bulldoze the palistinian olive orchards (which is their lively hood) then the UN should saction the shit out of them.
You mean pre 1967 borders. The problem is even if they did that, Hamas would still want to destroy them. They now figure they might as well hang on to the more easily defendable settlements and abandon the rest. There is nothing to gain by pulling back to those 1967 borders, so why do it?

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because in the long term land grabbing pretty much always fails when the demographics are way against the invader. moreover, having the stronger army certainly does not provide any moral or international legitimacy. there are numerous other reasons as well.

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I hear now they will be letting some former Baathists into the new government. I'd say they are a day late and a dollar short.

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