iain Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 gregw that is ridiculous. here's my proof: god told me it was ridiculous. Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Logic and reason??? Why that doesn't jive w/ the whole, oh how does the catholic church call it, i forget...what was it? its' coming to me...hold on...that's it...THE MYSTERY OF FAITH...you, nor Bush, can comprehend God's will in this...so don't pull that card on me... You know, Hitler thought he had god on his side...gee, guess what, Mr. binladen thinks god is on his side...gee, so does Mr. Bush...wow, how's about them apples???  Don't preach to me...  Actually, Hitler never claimed a religious basis for his actions. He USED religion to lend legitimacy to what he was motivating the German People to do. There's a difference. I can't speak to Mr. bin Laden.  If I may be so bold as to offer a possible interpretation to what Mr. Bush means: He may be saying that based on HIS moral belief system (which in this case encompasses a relationship with God), he feels he is acting in the right vein. I only attempt to do this because I have spent a lot of time around Christians and the Christian church and have heard this statement made by others with that intent that I just offered. Food for thought.  Greg_W Quote
RuMR Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 ummm...i said cornerstoneS...as in concepts...government has no right to dictate a private citizens religious preferences...this implies that it shall not make decisions based on religion... Â You may be mistaken here. Let me throw this out there: the First Amendment guarantees against the Federal Government establishing a "national religion" (i.e., Anglican Church in G.B., Catholicism in Argentina, etc.). All this implies is freedom to worship as one chooses. You seem to be inferring that this means that citizens in positions of government cannot utilize their set or morals and standards to make decisions about policy. This is all we are talking about. We each have a belief system (whether that means you believe in God or choose not to believe in God) that we call upon when we make difficult decisions. What it appears you are trying to do is impede an American citizen from exercising his rights as guaranteed under the First Amendment to worship as he chooses simply because of the position he holds. Â Greg_W Fuck off greg...i will never support a war for religious purposes, i don't give a shit if the manicured bushes on the front lawn of the white house ignite with holy fire in the middle of a press conference and say its so!! Â I only wish God would ignite BUSH not a bush... Quote
Loose_Brie Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Its funny, when Muslim's do it, its called Jihad, when Bush does it we call "there is a higher father that I appeal to" os its OK. Â Bush and Bin Laden are the same. They are Religous fanatics that have used their fathers money to put them in positions to kill people! Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 gregw that is ridiculous. here's my proof: god told me it was ridiculous. Â Iain, please give me examples (plural) of why my interpretation of the First Amendment is ridiculous. I know you want to discredit what I am saying by slamming it, but I'd like to see something concrete. Quote
Jim Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Jeebus...how did something that hot come from the genes of the ridiculous looking ape of a president we have? Also, I object to the backdrop...since when have the republicans given a shit about starving people, let alone starving people of color?  Actually Josh, Bush is only the third president in history to visit Africa while in office and promised to give $15 billion to fight aids/hiv in Africa last year. I'd say he's doing a better job than most former presidents in doing what he can to help the "starving people of color". You might look into this stuff before making an unobjective blanket statement.  And don't delude yourself, other than small pockets of liberal voters, Bush will overwelmingly win a second term. I might have voted for someone else, but Kerry is the anti -Crist.   Unfortunately all the talk about aid to Africa has been just that, talk. The Bushies have merely repackaged current aid packages and have appropriated (ok - republican congress to blame too) nearly no new money to this effort. Guess we'll just have to wait until November to see, eh? Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Logic and reason??? Why that doesn't jive w/ the whole, oh how does the catholic church call it, i forget...what was it? its' coming to me...hold on...that's it...THE MYSTERY OF FAITH...you, nor Bush, can comprehend God's will in this...so don't pull that card on me... Â I was addressing your interpretation of the First Amendment or Constitution, not faith or God. You appear all too ready to abandon the tenets upon which this country was founded, and by which our freedoms are secured. Quote
RuMR Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Its funny, when Muslim's do it, its called Jihad, when Bush does it we call "there is a higher father that I appeal to" os its OK. Bush and Bin Laden are the same. They are Religous fanatics that have used their fathers money to put them in positions to kill people!  so true... Quote
iain Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Look, I'm just relaying what god told me. Don't shoot the messenger! (no really, don't shoot the messenger) Â Apparently it was good enough to start some ol' fashioned nation-building, so it shoudl be good enough for you. Quote
j_b Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 what's next? jja promissing a bj to anyone who votes for bush? Â come on dude, it was a joke Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 ummm...i said cornerstoneS...as in concepts...government has no right to dictate a private citizens religious preferences...this implies that it shall not make decisions based on religion... Â You may be mistaken here. Let me throw this out there: the First Amendment guarantees against the Federal Government establishing a "national religion" (i.e., Anglican Church in G.B., Catholicism in Argentina, etc.). All this implies is freedom to worship as one chooses. You seem to be inferring that this means that citizens in positions of government cannot utilize their set or morals and standards to make decisions about policy. This is all we are talking about. We each have a belief system (whether that means you believe in God or choose not to believe in God) that we call upon when we make difficult decisions. What it appears you are trying to do is impede an American citizen from exercising his rights as guaranteed under the First Amendment to worship as he chooses simply because of the position he holds. Â Greg_W Fuck off greg... Â Great comeback, Rudy. Man, the way you counterpointed me there, shit, what was I to do? You're a fucking debate god! Phew! That was some real next-level brainiac debate-type shit! You trying out for the Olympic Debate Team? 2008? You should. Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Look, I'm just relaying what god told me. Don't shoot the messenger! (no really, don't shoot the messenger)Â Apparently it was good enough to start some ol' fashioned nation-building, so it shoudl be good enough for you. Â So, no basis? Good, that's what I thought: you have no grasp of the issue or the Constitution. Thanks for playing, but show up with a few more marbles next time. Quote
RuMR Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Logic and reason??? Why that doesn't jive w/ the whole, oh how does the catholic church call it, i forget...what was it? its' coming to me...hold on...that's it...THE MYSTERY OF FAITH...you, nor Bush, can comprehend God's will in this...so don't pull that card on me... Â I was addressing your interpretation of the First Amendment or Constitution, not faith or God. You appear all too ready to abandon the tenets upon which this country was founded, and by which our freedoms are secured. Â Greg...you can continue this pseudo-logic argument until you are out of air...its clear bush wanted this war for his own purposes and it had nothing to do w/ AlQuaeda or an "imminent threat" or WMD...now either he isn't coming clean on the real reasons or he is using his concept of "faith" to justify this war...FACE IT...the reasons he gave INITIALLY have nothing to do with the reality of why he started this war...he flat ass lied to us, flat ass lied...and its american boys and girls that are bleeding for his reasons, which aren't clear to me yet, and iraqi people are bleeding as well. Â Everytime that asshole opens his pie hole he pisses off 90% of the world... Â and you know, the funny thing, he has MADE an AlQuada connection because they are there NOW fighting w/ the insurgents...now how about that????? Quote
Loose_Brie Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Greg, Â The first amedment is not the end all be all. There is interpertation. The "sepparation or church and state" is part of our landscape of law. While the first amendmant states " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" it has been interperated to mean sepparation of church and state. That is why we take statues of the 10 commandments out of court houses, and remove "under god" from the pledge of alegence Quote
RuMR Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 ummm...i said cornerstoneS...as in concepts...government has no right to dictate a private citizens religious preferences...this implies that it shall not make decisions based on religion... Â You may be mistaken here. Let me throw this out there: the First Amendment guarantees against the Federal Government establishing a "national religion" (i.e., Anglican Church in G.B., Catholicism in Argentina, etc.). All this implies is freedom to worship as one chooses. You seem to be inferring that this means that citizens in positions of government cannot utilize their set or morals and standards to make decisions about policy. This is all we are talking about. We each have a belief system (whether that means you believe in God or choose not to believe in God) that we call upon when we make difficult decisions. What it appears you are trying to do is impede an American citizen from exercising his rights as guaranteed under the First Amendment to worship as he chooses simply because of the position he holds. Â Greg_W Fuck off greg... Â Great comeback, Rudy. Man, the way you counterpointed me there, shit, what was I to do? You're a fucking debate god! Phew! That was some real next-level brainiac debate-type shit! You trying out for the Olympic Debate Team? 2008? You should. Whatever...i see red when bush gets brought up... Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Logic and reason??? Why that doesn't jive w/ the whole, oh how does the catholic church call it, i forget...what was it? its' coming to me...hold on...that's it...THE MYSTERY OF FAITH...you, nor Bush, can comprehend God's will in this...so don't pull that card on me... Â I was addressing your interpretation of the First Amendment or Constitution, not faith or God. You appear all too ready to abandon the tenets upon which this country was founded, and by which our freedoms are secured. Â Greg...you can continue this pseudo-logic argument until you are out of air...its clear bush wanted this war for his own purposes and it had nothing to do w/ AlQuaeda or an "imminent threat" or WMD...now either he isn't coming clean on the real reasons or he is using his concept of "faith" to justify this war...FACE IT...the reasons he gave INITIALLY have nothing to do with the reality of why he started this war...he flat ass lied to us, flat ass lied...and its american boys and girls that are bleeding for his reasons, which aren't clear to me yet, and iraqi people are bleeding as well. Â Everytime that asshole opens his pie hole he pisses off 90% of the world... Â and you know, the funny thing, he has MADE an AlQuada connection because they are there NOW fighting w/ the insurgents...now how about that????? Â Way to dodge the entire discussion of your lack of knowledge regarding the First Amendment and individual rights. You know, I'll restate that you appear all too ready to abandon the the founding concepts of this country simply to throw a parallel that you made back at you: One of the first things Hitler did when he became Chancellor was to systematically abandon the current system of government and laws that Germany had in place...Gee, so did Fidel Castro...hmmm..who else? Pol Pot? I'm sure we could go on if you wanted. No? Then stick to bridge design, where I am sure you are an expert, cause you are clearly not one on this subject. Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 (edited) Whatever...i see red when bush gets brought up... Â Edited April 22, 2004 by iceguy Quote
jja Posted April 21, 2004 Author Posted April 21, 2004 Bush and Bin Laden are the same. They are Religous fanatics that have used their fathers money to put them in positions to kill people! Â Whatever...i see red when bush gets brought up... Â This is why you guys are going to lose in November. Quote
iain Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 So, no basis? Good, that's what I thought: you have no grasp of the issue or the Constitution. Thanks for playing, but show up with a few more marbles next time. Sooo, how do you feel about constitutional amendments redefining marriage? If it's not spelled out in the constitution it should be good to go! I apologize for not getting the NRA 101 course on constitutional interpretation. Â If you can't see the dangers of "word of god" decisions at that level, well there's just no reason to argue with you. Â P.S. You can cut the condescending bullshit, I guarantee it does not make you appear smarter. Quote
RuMR Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Whatever...i see red when bush gets brought up... Â You see red whenever you pull the tampon out of your cooch, there, skipper. Â Â and you, sir, can go blow a goat! Quote
Greg_W Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 [quote If you can't see the dangers of "word of god" decisions at that level, well there's just no reason to argue with you. Â Â Where was the outcry when Clinton was using this tagline? Come on, this seems a little hypocritical: when your guy is in office it's okay? But the other is a fanatic? Â Here's a fundamental question: Why should an individual with the same rights as you and I be forced to cease practicing his religion simply because of his job? Quote
RuMR Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 (edited) silly boy...cuz when he makes a decision based on HIS religion, it impacts me and the practice of MY religion...DUH Â as in its against my principles, morals, ethics and my religious beliefs to needlessly subject our citizens and other people to a stupidass war for his gain... Edited April 21, 2004 by RuMR Quote
Loose_Brie Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 Bush and Bin Laden are the same. They are Religous fanatics that have used their fathers money to put them in positions to kill people! Â Whatever...i see red when bush gets brought up... Â This is why you guys are going to lose in November. Â That may happen. But Bush is a unique fellow. He has done something no conservative has been able to do. Really piss of the hippes, intelectuals and youth. These people will vote. Â I doubt Bush has earned more than a handfull of votes that went for Gore. There certianly are a lot of people who will vote for the first time simply to vote against him. Â So it will come down to turn out. And being REALLY REALLY PISSED OFF at Bush will help. Quote
iain Posted April 21, 2004 Posted April 21, 2004 I'd be pretty pissed off if anyone essentially caused the deaths of hundreds because it had anything to do with so-called "god's will". I really don't care if it was Clinton, the guy down the street, or my dad. Quote
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