Peter_Puget Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: ...just how tall are you guys? My pop sensibility says smaller than average. So come on fess up how tall are you? If I had met you I wouldn't be asking. Average US male 5' 10" I bet your shorter! My pop sensibility tells me you are wearin' danskins and sportin' a woody (at least when Dwayner's around.) Go hug yourself. True I can sport a woody for hours. quote: These guys believe that by creating controversy they can have their moment in the sun. Assuming that is the case, it seems you have a problem with that. What does your pop sensibility say about that? Simply that there are more effective ways to solve the problem. But I am glad you are agreeing with me. And you understood! [qb] But you are laboriously long winded and wordy and I really don't understand any of your issues... Being slow must be difficult for you. Maybe you should just start off agreeing with everything I say. Cheers as always, PP By the way did you notice Dwayner want to hug me know! Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: ...just how tall are you guys? My pop sensibility says smaller than average. So come on fess up how tall are you? If I had met you I wouldn't be asking. Average US male 5' 10" I bet your shorter! Just post your real name and I'll post my height. Oh Gawd, this is sounding like a personal ad. You aren't going to try to hug me are you? Quote
Dru Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Retro - make him admit to what he's in prison for before you agree to marry him Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: Retro - make him admit to what he's in prison for before you agree to marry him He would have to give me access to substantial assets in foreign banks also . And I don't mean Lycra-wrapped horsecock. Quote
mattp Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 I am sorry to see this discussion degenerate, yet again, into the same old mud slinging. I believe the anonymity of the internet has not served us well and that posters on "both" sides of this discussion seem to be more intent on insulting each other than addressing the issues at hand. I realize there are not actually two sides because Puget is right that everyone here seems to AGREE that bolts should not be used where "natural" pro can be had, that grid-bolting is a mess, and that the Icicle canyon in particular has been overdone, so what we are discussing more than anything else is personal communication styles and how can we address these issues. To the bolt pullers engaged in what they proclaim to be a heroic crusade: vigilantism alone is not going to solve anything. Consider this case in point: do you think that Mitch's pulling bolts on Whipsaw, over ten years ago, helped slow the proliferation of new bolts at Vantage? Of course not. I am not necessarily sorry that he did it, and I am not sorry to see the bolts removed from DDD last year because in my view they clearly did not belong there. But please try to incorporate your "restoration" efforts into some broader plan of attack which will include some effort to actually work with or communicate with those who you feel are acting irresponsibly. Please try to tone down the rhetoric so that there may be some broader appreciation of your message, because calling sport climbers pussies or saying that a bunch of irresponsible kids got a new toy for Christmas and are using it to ruin the world is just not helping to change anything. Nobody who doesn't already agree with you is convinced by this and it only divides climbers. To those who criticize these bolt choppers for being chest beaters: see above. Has your vehement criticism of such activities as the grandstanding over the DDD restoration tamed the rhetoric any? No. Where you descend into name calling and taunt, you are just as divisive as those whom you criticize. Do you think these guys are going to back off because you call them jerks or do you think that somebody who believes these guys are acting heroically is going to be convinced by such quips and jabs? Lets focus on the fact that it seems all but a very small number of climbers are more or less in agreement about what is appropriate at a place like Castle Rock or the Pearly Gates. Along with seeking to curb bolting practices, let's try to minimize the spread of "Frenchmen's Folly" -- by which I mean the proliferation of conflict and hyperbole that seems to prevent any coordinated effort to solve real problems (the proliferation of sport-climbing may also be some kind of folly but it is not specific to Frenchmen's Coulee). In Icicle Creek, what can we do so that "restoration" efforts may be followed with some progress toward changing current practices and actually reducing the need for future route restoration? [ 06-19-2002, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: mattp ] Quote
sk Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Mattp I do not yet know the answer to the question at hand as far as what we should do, but that was stated so well. Thank you [ 06-19-2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: sk ] Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Mattp, Thanks for clearly seeing and stating the issue. Please don't refer to bolt removal as vigilanteism or a heroic crusade . Like you said, almost everyone agrees that bolts near natural protection is unacceptable. It is just that I am willing to take some initiative and do something about it. If I had your gift for communication, the issue would be more palletable. But the truth is this shit just pisses me off a bit much and I am not mature enough to resist taking a few shots. BTW: Just how tall is Matt Kerns anyway? Quote
mattp Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Retro: I mean no disrespect by using those terms. But when you decide to take the law into your own hands, when you state that you don't care what anybody else thinks, and when you say you are going to keep going back and removing the offending bolts if they reappear, I call that vigilantism. And when you and others talk in terms that sound like a holy war against excessive bolting, and when you and they suggest that they are showing great leadership and trying to enlighten the uninformed masses, I call that a heroic crusade. Keep up the good fight – I mean that because you make a lot of good points -- but if you are going to be such an aggressive and vocal advocate you will have to accept the fact that not everybody likes everything about what you are doing. Matt Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: ...just how tall are you guys? My pop sensibility says smaller than average. So come on fess up how tall are you? If I had met you I wouldn't be asking. Average US male 5' 10" I bet your shorter! Well, Kerns, I am 5'10". Quote
Dru Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mattp: Dru - Should we see if we can get peace-officer Larry to issue tickets for excessive or irresponsible bolting? I bet he could be good at this -- if we could get him to leave his cruiser and hike up the mountainsides. Then our canyon could be saved and we wouldn't have to fear encounters of larry kind in the parking lot because he'd be hiding in the bushes up at the Pearly Gates or somewhere where he could surely solve the crime of the century. I agree with you that it is up to us to act, and I indicated my support for some bolt removal -- like the principal that bolts do not belong where natural protection exists, I believe that nearly everybody who has participated in this debate agrees that there are at least some offensive bolts in the Icicle Creek canyon that should be removed. What we're talking about is how to undertake such a program and how to talk about it, before and after. Matt Ya if I ever chopped some bolts I would tell whomever placed them, that I did it and why. HOWEVER sometimes the perpetrator is unclear and I would not wait until the culprit was identified, to remove the offensive metal. Act first talk second. [ 06-19-2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Dru ] Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Cavey - That would be strictly speaking impossible. Funny Mitch you always seem less than average to me. Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mattp: Retro: But when you decide to take the law into your own hands, when you state that you don't care what anybody else thinks, and when you say you are going to keep going back and removing the offending bolts if they reappear... Did I really say that? Of course if you don't remove them again if they reappear, then what's the point. Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Funny Mitch you always seem less than average to me. Gee Matt, with an ego the size of yours, that does not suprise me a bit. Do you have to leave it at the base of a route when you go for the redpoint or can you you really climb with something that large. I bet it creates enough shade that you never have to use sun screen. BTW, average or less than, I am OK with me. Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Crackbolter: I think Mitch has offended just about every climber that I admire. The obvious solution is to choose your role models more carefully. Of course, I know better that to expect that from someone that would choose Crackbolter as an avatar. Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Mr. Kerns, a er Peter, yeah, that's right , you want my address? You can come on over an' we'll have waffles and discuss things. Quote
Dru Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Mitch 4 posts in a row? Dont get worked up 4:20 is only a few minutes away. Quote
Retrosaurus Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: Mitch 4 posts in a row? Dont get worked up 4:20 is only a few minutes away. I guess I'm compensating for something. Have to ask MK about what. He's my new shrink; his advice sucks but, he's cheap and doesn't mind when I ridicule him. Going camping now. Taking my toys and my tools. Guess where? Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Fred climbed all those bolted routes in th 40's and never bothered to report them due to the choss and moss. He placed some horsecock for pro on every pitch Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 Retro you are truly, truly stupid. Why on earth do you think I am Matt Kerns? Even after I noted the impossibilty of Cavey's earlier assertion? Although it should be noted that Matt Kerns is an all around good guy and ordinarily I would be proud to be confused with him. PP Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 There was no "assertion" just more fuel for the fire Quote
Dennis_Harmon Posted June 19, 2002 Posted June 19, 2002 At the risk of diverting you guys from personal attacks, and maybe to return the discussion to the subject at hand, I have a question for Mr. Puget. What in the world is so sporting about sport climbing when you don't give the mountain half a chance, i.e. kill, maim, or failure? It just seems to me akin to sportsmen/hunters who murder corn fed deer from a tree stance with a bazooka. Maybe you need another name for your "sport?" You might consider it. Dennis Quote
pope Posted June 20, 2002 Posted June 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: ....it should be noted that Matt Kerns is an all around good guy and ordinarily I would be proud to be confused with him. PP In every case, you should be proud to be confused for Matt Kerns. I know the guy well, and if he be you, then your on-line demeanor reveals only the ass-end of your character. Quote
pope Posted June 20, 2002 Posted June 20, 2002 Oh, and you want a hug? HUG ME UPSIDE DOWN! For one who criticizes grandiose ranting, you certainly have contributed to this thread an Oprah-sized helping of whiny drivel. Quote
mattp Posted June 20, 2002 Posted June 20, 2002 Dennis, I believe the question is, or at least that it should be, what should be done where it appears that most climbers are in general agreement about what is acceptable, yet there seem to be a few individuals who proceed to install bolts in places where they should know that most of their peers will object. I don't think Puget or anybody else is trying to defend sport climbing here – that is another topic. Quote
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