slothrop Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 cleansing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Sheesh! It's not like everything's going to be all lovey-dovey in the Balkans anytime in the forseeable future. However, things were remarkably calm for quite a while and compared to Iraq, Kosovo is like Seattle on a sunny day in March. Â Shut the fuck up. You have no idea what you are talking about. I have been to Albania. It is no fucking picnic champ. And its even worse in Kosovo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Hey murray. Just curious. Did you erad the rest of the thread? Cause it seems like you don't know waht is going on. No-one is saying the U.S. isn't responsible. Quite the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Shut the fuck up. You have no idea what you are talking about. I have been to Albania. It is no fucking picnic champ. And its even worse in Kosovo. Â Dude, have a ! That's exactly what I said: it's not going to be a fucking picnic anytime soon, given the region's history. But, prior to the recent flare-up, I don't remember hearing about Kosovo the kind of news that has been coming from places like Iraq, Israel/Palestine, Afghanistan, Western Africa, or Haiti in the past year or so. Which of these places have you been to lately, Cheif? I mean, you've really been "in the shit", right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Hey murray. Just curious. Did you erad the rest of the thread? Cause it seems like you don't know waht is going on. No-one is saying the U.S. isn't responsible. Quite the opposite. Â Fairweather's remarks consisted of criticizing the UN and EU for their ineffectiveness, and it was those remarks I was responding to. He made no mention whatsoever of the US' role in things, and I don't presume to know what his thoughts might be - if any - regarding the US' role. Â As far as reading the rest of the thread, yes, I have. I made no claim to be responding to every comment made by every contributor to the thread, nor would I ever attempt such a thing. This thread is pretty convoluted by now (you may recall we started out talking about Iraq, and have somehow managed to travel a few thousand miles to the west); no one response could possibly address every point that been raised along the way. Â Now if you'll all excuse me, D.O.A. is about to start at the Brew Pub, so I'll leave you to continue the discussion without me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Welcome back, Mr. Fairweather. Now please explain to me WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM YOU HAVE WITH OUR INVOLVEMENT IN KOSOVO? (And how would such reservations or criticisms NOT apply to our actions in Iraq?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Fairweather said Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Kosovo is still a mess, the UN is not effective there, The EU is not willing to police their own back yard, and Mattp still has no clue about world affairs. Â Â Â Murray said As for the EU, those NATO troops in Kosovo are from Germany, France, Britain, and Italy - the EU, in other words - as well as an American contingent. There are also forces from Canada, the Netherlands, and various other countries. If they've been as ineffective as you claim, then the blame falls as much on the American contingent as any other. Â Perhaps you'd prefer that everyone withdraw and let the massacres resume? After all, the intervention has been less than perfectly effective, so we might as well just give up altogether, right? Or do you have a solution in mind beyond just slagging the various countries that are trying their damnedest to resolve an incredibly complex problem? If so, I'm sure we'd all love to hear it. Â Tell me Murray....which UN contingent stepped aside in Bosnia and let the Serbians slaughter thousands in the UN declared safe haven of Srebrenica? (Hint: it wasn't the US) And while you're at it, would you please describe for us all how Slobidan has turned his Hague trial into a circus/laughing stock and revealed the farce that would be the international court? Let's talk about how the EU used NATO to cleanse europe of an evil dictator, but stuck their noses in the air when it came time to deal with Saddam. Let's talk about how the EU had no problem bombing Belgrade without UN support... Â Â Regardless, my original comments were only presented in response to Mattp's naive statement to the effect that 'all is well in Kosovo'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 (edited) Welcome back, Mr. Fairweather. Now please explain to me WHAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM YOU HAVE WITH OUR INVOLVEMENT IN KOSOVO? (And how would such reservations or criticisms NOT apply to our actions in Iraq?) Â Nice attempt to sneak away from your original premise Matt, but we should revisit your first post that stated, in effect, 'all is well in Kosovo'. Â We did not act as 'peacekeepers' in Kosovo. We took the side of ethnic Albanians who were just as dirty as the Serbs vis a vis their 'terrorist-like' tactics and penchant for dishing out brutal violence on innocents, and who had a rather weak claim to the title of 'nation' within the borders of the former Yugoslovia. We, at the behest of the EU and our NATO 'obligations', took sides. In the process we helped eliminate a pretty stinky ex-commie dictator, and I have no major problem with that. Let's face it though; the region is a big pressure cooker that will likely explode again, and who do you suppose the French, Germans and others will ask for help in solving this reemerging disaster? Â The comparisons that can be drawn regarding Iraq and Kosovo are tenuous at best IMO, but then it was you who originally attempted to make the comparison of a perceived success in Kosovo versus a perceived failure in Iraq. Any comments on the news story? Are you going to now cite degrees of violence and claim that one is worse than the other? At least j_b and Sexual Chocolate show a solid consistency in their arguments. Â Edited March 20, 2004 by Fairweather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Shut the fuck up. You have no idea what you are talking about. I have been to Albania. It is no fucking picnic champ. And its even worse in Kosovo. Â Dude, have a ! That's exactly what I said: it's not going to be a fucking picnic anytime soon, given the region's history. But, prior to the recent flare-up, I don't remember hearing about Kosovo the kind of news that has been coming from places like Iraq, Israel/Palestine, Afghanistan, Western Africa, or Haiti in the past year or so. Which of these places have you been to lately, Cheif? I mean, you've really been "in the shit", right? Â You call church and mosque burning, attempted genocide by both sides and general anarchy a walk in the park in march in seattle? Shit. You must be pretty fuked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Nice attempt to corner me, Fairweather, but I did not and I have never said "all's well in Kosovo." Â As I have said, in at least three posts now, I do not pretend to know all or even really very much about that particular episode in our history. I am only trying to understand why the right wing keeps waving it as exhibit number one as to how Bill Clinton was a terrible president when, based on everything else I have ever heard about it, it was not an utter failure in American foreign policy or even a mistake. (Let me say for at least the fourth time - I don't pretend to know all that much other than what I have seen in the mainstream press.) Â You have not answered my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Come on, Scott. Get a grip. Do you really think I'm that callous? Â If you can point me to some news sources that describe general anarchy in that region (aside from the recent flare-up, of course, which is duly noted), I will gladly read them. I just was not aware that Kosovo has been racked by bombings, genocide, and anarchy since the late 90s. This is the period I'm referring to. I know that things were very bad around the time that NATO got involved, but I had thought they had improved: in a cursory search, the only news stories I find in the past 6 months are about the war crimes trials and rumblings of Serb nationalism in parliament. I am well aware that other regions of the world, like Iraq and Haiti, have seen some serious strife lately, hence the comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I am not going to even bother to look. You can do it for yourself. Anyways. Kosovo has gotten little treatment since the lat ninties adn that is not a testament to a decrease in the volatility. No, I do not think you are callous. I think you don't know what you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 fairweather, it must just burrrrn you that Clinton was not only re-elected, but elected both times with an acutally majority!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Nice attempt to corner me, Fairweather, but I did not and I have never said "all's well in Kosovo." Â As I have said, in at least three posts now, I do not pretend to know all or even really very much about that particular episode in our history. I am only trying to understand why the right wing keeps waving it as exhibit number one as to how Bill Clinton was a terrible president when, based on everything else I have ever heard about it, it was not an utter failure in American foreign policy or even a mistake. (Let me say for at least the fourth time - I don't pretend to know all that much other than what I have seen in the mainstream press.) Â You have not answered my question. Â I believe that I did answer your question as thoroughly as possible given the fact that I mostly discount your premise, "what is your major problem with Kosovo...." Â Regarding Kosovo, you freely admit that you "know very little about that episode in our 'history'", and yet you have attempted to draw comparisons to it with the situation in Iraq. Might I respectfully suggest that you investigate this 'episode' further? As the Balkans versus Iraq go, and Bill Clinton aside, there is much hypocricy to go around, and the UN, EU, and American anti-war liberals have all taken a pretty good slice of it. IMHO, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 fairweather, it must just burrrrn you that Clinton was not only re-elected, but elected both times with an acutally majority!! Â Doesn't bother me a bit, junior. Dole was as exciting as a piece of Melba toast...never had a chance. But just for the sake of semantic clearity, Clinton did not receive more than 50% of the popular vote versus HW Bush, hence a 'majority', or I believe, versus Dole. (I'll have to investigate the latter.) Â Hey, shouldn't you be lounging in New Zealand on daddy's dime right now? How many of those jet-a bottles did you end up tossing into the burn can? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 fairweather, it must just burrrrn you that Clinton was not only re-elected, but elected both times with an acutally majority!! Â Doesn't bother me a bit, junior. Dole was as exciting as a piece of Melba toast...never had a chance. But just for the sake of semantic clearity, Clinton did not receive more than 50% of the popular vote versus HW Bush, hence a 'majority', or I believe, versus Dole. (I'll have to investigate the latter.) Â Hey, shouldn't you be lounging in New Zealand on daddy's dime right now? How many of those jet-a bottles did you end up tossing into the burn can? Â Sorry, my mis-type, I meant to say he actually had more votes than his opponent, unlike our current commander in thief. Â Nope, ended up bailing on NZ due to your stirring arguements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 welcome back fairweather! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbw1966 Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I am not going to even bother to look. You can do it for yourself. Anyways. Kosovo has gotten little treatment since the lat ninties adn that is not a testament to a decrease in the volatility. No, I do not think you are callous. I think you don't know what you are talking about. Â This doesn't jibe with my experience in the region last summer. Things were pretty calm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 rob are you questioning the authority on eastern europe? how dare you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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