Teamsters Play Hardball with Darigold

[Dru]

oh

[richard_noggin]

Marylou

Like does anyone here have the attention span to read

something that long without going to sleep?

Hey this is spray

spray it don't say it!

[AlpineK]

Marylou

Like does anyone here have the attention span to read

something that long without going to sleep?

Hey this is spray

spray it don't say it!

 

Every once in a while I'm shocked when I completely agree with Dickhead.

[marylou]

Sorry about that. I tried to explain to Tbay and others that their contention that people are forced to join unions and pay for political action is simply not accurate.

 

I kept getting shot down, so I had to go with actual real live factual information about the Beck decision and its impact on workers in union shops. If you don't want to read it, feel free to scroll right on down.

 

I don't have broadband, so for me this cut-and-paste method is actually less annoying than the click on the link method.

[JayB]

But your choices are limited to who manages the 401K plan

 

Yep. I actually was the one who put together our 401(k) plan. What's your point/question/issue? This is how I did ours: did some research, made some decisions, discussed it with the membership, signed the paper. Our decision was based on a number of factors.

 

I'm merely relating war stories from a retired FBI agent who worked on RICO enforcement. He told me the big game in town was union officials receiving kickbacks over pension funds. I'll let you do the leg work in verifying it.

 

Now why on earth would I be interested in verifying/proving your claim for you?

 

If you're going to trash unions, try to do it based on factual information.

 

The potential for kickbacks and corruption should be absolutely clear to anyone who has "put together" a 401(k) plan.

 

Investment companies make their money by charging fees to administer the plans, and/or by withdrawing a fixed percentage of the assets invested in the funds within the plan from the funds every year to cover expenses and make a profit. The more assets they manage or administer, the more money they make. These companies will compete aggressively to get their hands on any significant pool of assets - and if the person or persons responsible for determining who gets to manage the money hints that they would bring their business to the said investment company in exchange for a bribe.....

[marylou]

Funny, Jay, it never occurred to me to get a kickback. I did research for a year, and came up with something I thought the membership would accept.

 

It's worked out okay for us. Not perfect, but not too bad either. I'm pretty proud of that project.

[JayB]

No doubt it has - but less scrupulous persons than yourself have succumbed to the temptation apparently.

 

Any union with considerable assets to invest and half a clue should have measures written into their bylaws to prevent this sort of corruption in order to protect the interests of their members.

[marylou]

I don't think I'm the exception.

 

Could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[JayB]

This particular situation has more to do with human nature than the scruples of the average union member charged with selecting an administrator for the union's retirement plan assets. Put 1000 people from any background in a situation where someone has a powerful incentive to bribe them and a certain percentage will succumb to that temptation and accept the bribe.

 

Where unions may be unique is that they may on the whole have worse-than-average safeguards and controls against this sort of thing. Obviously there are a fair number of corporations that had very poor governance as well, but I would bet that on the whole union's finances and the manner that they are administered are quite a bit less transparent than the average public corporation's.

[marylou]

I'm sure that you "would bet" that, but in fact the members demand that the money thing remains that way. I've never been tempted by any weird kickback money thing, and I don't think that most people who are leading unions have that at the front of their minds either.

 

Seriously, it's just a lot of hard work with not a lot of reward.

[JayB]

without unions all workers would make the minimum wage without benefits and noone could afford a car.

 

This of course explains the existence of tens of millions of non-union workers that are paid considerably more than minimum wage. Without unions, the law of supply and demand would cease to exist, and employers would not compete for workers with the skills they need to produced the goods or services that they sell for a profit.

 

In point of fact, the closest the scenario that you described ever came to existing was/is in Communist countries. Pretty well sums up the situation in North Korea, provided you substitue "food" for cars.

 

Anyhow - how did the Nobel Committee overlook an economic mastermind like you? You've been robbed, kemosabe.

[j_b]

The potential for kickbacks and corruption should be absolutely clear to anyone who has "put together" a 401(k) plan.

 

sure is! that is why so many municipal or pension funds have been affected by scandals. unions are no exception (why should they be?)

 

Investment companies make their money by charging fees to administer the plans, and/or by withdrawing a fixed percentage of the assets invested in the funds within the plan from the funds every year to cover expenses and make a profit. The more assets they manage or administer, the more money they make. These companies will compete aggressively to get their hands on any significant pool of assets - and if the person or persons responsible for determining who gets to manage the money hints that they would bring their business to the said investment company in exchange for a bribe.....

 

which shows that there are at least as many corrupt money managers as there are financial scandals. i am not saying this to excuse corruption among labor union trustees but to point out that there are bad individuals occuppying all sort of functions, and in the case of pension fund kickbacks, they are all enabled by corrupt money managers (or is it that they are only "competing aggressively", jay?). so why the focus on labor?

[TBay]

I tried to explain to Tbay and others that their contention that people are forced to join unions and pay for political action is simply not accurate.[/Quote]

in theory its not suppose to happen, but in practice especially in the blue-collar arena, its a damn near daily occurance. take a field trip down to any tavern on marginal way and ask how many "scabs" they have beaten the S$#T out of.

my experience- my plan right out of high school was to work at a local cardboard box plant in pierce county and attend night college courses. this particular plant has a 45-day probation period.... never mind im beating the same bush everyone else is beating, ..."neither cast ye pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, turn again and rend you."

without unions all workers would make the minimum wage without benefits and noone could afford a car.

 

JayB response-

This of course explains the existence of tens of millions of non-union workers that are paid considerably more than minimum wage.[/Quote]

 

right on JayB, this brings me to my final point:

marylou says-

I don't have broadband...[/Quote]

huh?, what?, (wiping the tears from my eyes from laughter) all this time pro-unionists are trying to convince, on this very thread, to the masses that unionists get a better wage, and you, a unionist (even a white collared one), does not have the luxury of broadband. and don't tell me Ballard does not have access to broadband, especially if all the union has to do is flex its muscle.

 

i understand that this is Spray, and i enjoy dishin' it out as well as takin' it.

i understand that part of your job is union PR, and that you have to deny any union ill-dealings even if your staring up into the 'double-barrel shotgun' of truth.

bring yourself out of the 'dark ages' and admit that the earth is not flat, that the moon orbits around the earth, the earth orbits around the suns, and labor unions are a dying breed (for good reason).

 

never trust anything you read on the internet

 

late

[j_b]

without unions all workers would make the minimum wage without benefits and noone could afford a car.

 

This of course explains the existence of tens of millions of non-union workers that are paid considerably more than minimum wage.

 

today, compensations for all workers (including non-union) are conditioned by the presence of unions (non-union shops cannot offer the minimum wage while unionized shops offer say $30 an hour or .... everybody would unionize), the same way that no unions in the beginning of the industrial era conditioned compensations for all workers, or for that matter a no union future would allow employers to offer considerably less than what they offer today. nobody operates in a vaccum .... as you ought to know.

 

Without unions, the law of supply and demand would cease to exist, and employers would not compete for workers with the skills they need to produced the goods or services that they sell for a profit.

 

which would therefore allow them to pay considerably less than what they pay today to non-union types.

 

provided you substitue "food" for cars.

 

here you go. you see that you can show intellectual flexibility when you try.

 

Anyhow - how did the Nobel Committee overlook an economic mastermind like you? You've been robbed, kemosabe.

 

pathetic.

[marylou]

marylou says-

I don't have broadband...

 

and then TBay goes-

huh?, what?, (wiping the tears from my eyes from laughter) all this time pro-unionists are trying to convince, on this very thread, to the masses that unionists get a better wage, and you, a unionist (even a white collared one), does not have the luxury of broadband. and don't tell me Ballard does not have access to broadband, especially if all the union has to do is flex its muscle.

 

Let me set a couple of things straight for ya:

 

1. I am a former (paid) business rep, (usually paid) rank-and-file contract negotiator, and volunteer. I don't do a lot of that stuff anymore. I got burned out. Did some pretty big projects for no money, like the 401(k) thing. I volunteer for a non-profit that does advocacy work for hikers now.

 

2. Broadband is available in Ballard. Work has been slow for quite a while for us due to the condition of the economy, and it's a luxury I simply cannot afford. When the economy's in the can like it is now, people don't go see a lot of live performance, instead probably choosing to go to or rent a movie. The part about the union flexing its muscles to get broadband in Ballard....well honestly pal, ya lost me on tha one!

[TBay]

marylou said-

I volunteer fro a non-profit that does advocacy work for hikers now.

does this mean you are attempting to unionize the "Mounties"?

that might actually be a good thing, probably hopeless though.

[Greg_W]

When the economy's in the can like it is now, people don't go see a lot of live performace...

 

I saw a live performance last night; it was awesome. I hung around after to see if I could spot you sweeping up, but we got bored and left.

[Bronco]

Dairygold for breakfast, lunch and dinner. mmmmmmm...

[marylou]

(ring, ring)

 

Greg: hello?

 

Tbay: Hey, it’s Tbay. What’s shakin’?

 

Greg: Nothin’, just doing some laundry for Minx so she won't ban me again.

 

Tbay: How those new Danskos working out for ya?

 

Greg, Oh they are SO nice...just like walking on clouds!

 

Tbay: Hey that union creep Marylou seems to be winning the arguments here. I’m bored of it. What should we do about it?

 

Greg: Well, I have a number of weapons I use on Marylou. She's a lot of fun to kick around. How about you make fun of her for doing volunteer work, and I’ll get her for having to do menial work as part of her job? How does that sound? Ohohoh, and make it sound like she's doing something with the Mountaineers. That'll make it even better!

 

TBay: Well, works for me, I guess, but won’t we end up just looking like a couple of small-minded jerks? I mean, don't you always end up looking like an ass?

 

Greg: Oh no, I’ve done this many times with her, and I end up looking great. She’s the one with the mud in her eye! Principles, schminciples. who is she, Mary Poppins? She's probably on the take just like all those other gangsters.

 

TBay: What about name calling?

 

Greg: Name calling is a lot of fun, but I’d be careful with it. Ya might get banned or somethin’.

 

Okay dude, it's time to put the stuff in the dryer. Do you think I should hang dry all the lingerie, or can I just toss it in with all the other stuff?

[willstrickland]

I saw a live performance last night; it was awesome. I hung around after to see if I could spot you sweeping up, but we got bored and left.

 

I didn't know the WWF was in Seattle last night!

[mothboy88]

So people are citing all the important things unions have done in the past (40 hour work week, less chance of being disarticulated on the job, etc.) The question that comes to my mind is... Once a union is esablished, can it's members ever concieve of a situation where they feel their goals have been achieved and they no longer feel the union is needed? Dissolution of organized labor would be conditional upon what?

[marylou]

I saw a live performance last night; it was awesome. I hung around after to see if I could spot you sweeping up, but we got bored and left.

 

I didn't know the WWF was in Seattle last night!

 

Dude, you are SO dumb! The WWF's not in town, it's Oklahoma! this week.

 

Everybody now..."Ooohkla-HOMA!"

[Greg_W]

I saw a live performance last night; it was awesome. I hung around after to see if I could spot you sweeping up, but we got bored and left.

 

I didn't know the WWF was in Seattle last night!

 

Dude, you are SO dumb! The WWF's not in town, it's Oklahoma! this week.

 

Everybody now..."Ooohkla-HOMA!"

 

Nope and nope.

[marylou]

So people are citing all the important things unions have done in the past (40 hour work week, less chance of being disarticulated on the job, etc.) The question that comes to my mind is... Once a union is esablished, can it's members ever concieve of a situation where they feel their goals have been achieved and they no longer feel the union is needed? Dissolution of organized labor would be conditional upon what?

 

Yeah, in the perfect world we woudn't need labor unions. Thing is, even having things like the 40 hour work week as law doesn't guarantee it will stay law without a little due diligence. Current administration's trying to do away with it, and the biggest organized group of people fighting that is labor unions. People represented by CBAs all have it in their contracts already, so changing the law wouldn't necessarily affect us, at least for a while. BUT....labor unions work to help raise the bar for all workers, not just the unionized ones. I know it sounds evil, but unions do care about all workers. A lot of the bad blood toward organized labor is based on perceptions, bad apples, the past....stuff that may or may not be relevant to today's discussion. The Beck ruling just came out in 1988, and from the shape of this here discussion, it's news to a lot of people, for example.

 

Okay, enough with the sunshine and lollipops for now.

[TBay]

picture this, the opening scene starts with...

(marylou writes)-

(ring, ring)

 

Greg: hello?

 

Tbay: Hey, it’s Tbay. What’s shakin’?

 

Greg: Nothin’, just doing some laundry for Minx so she won't ban me again.

 

Tbay: How those new Danskos working out for ya?

 

Greg, Oh they are SO nice...just like walking on clouds!

 

Tbay: Hey that union creep Marylou........

 

that is hilarious...

 

hilarious, because it is the dumbest scripting i have ever read/heard. you can't script worth shit!

you can't even pretend.

 

it is to nobodies suprise after reading that pulitzer prize winning piece, that you are forever doomed to be a stagehand/janitor. you will never see the bright lights of tinsletown, only changing them...

 

good luck