i gotsa a question for you techies...

[erik]

so we got home a day early and felt the need for the mother stone yesterday and went straight to index.

 

after a fday of failing and geting wokred on some of my favs, i took a walk around the lower town wall to check the scene....

 

walkin past city park/zilla area i came across a group of peeps with about 30ft of webbing wrapped around a small tree and some dudes small female belyer tied to it.....

 

so two things....

 

first of all dont block the trail with an unsafe setup....and then act all butt hurt when some one lets you know that it is not polite to block the trail........dont sling trees to snchor yourself to the ground...that is dumb...

 

also tying a smaller belayer into a static point creates a dangerous situation for both memebers of the party....(this is mostly for crag climbing) DOING THIS removes the dynamics from a belay and increases falling force onto all the pieces in the system...another this this put her baout 15 ft from the wall and added another unsafe angle towards to the route....how dumb are most people??? quite going verbatim from freedom of the hillz plz......

 

so what do you guys think about tying yourself into a static point on the ground so that if the leader may fall the belayer isnt pulled into the wall??? why not be an attentive belayer and work on dynamic belaying skilzz????

 

and dont block the trail with your dangerous setup!!!

 

thanks!!!

[freeclimb9]

"so what do you guys think about tying yourself into a static point on the ground so that if the leader may fall the belayer isnt pulled into the wall??? why not be an attentive belayer and work on dynamic belaying skilzz????"

 

Would you want to be the crash test dummy who leads while the belayer learns, or would you have a diminutive belayer anchored and maybe even using a device like a Gri Gri?

BTW, I saw a very similar setup to the one you described while at City of Rocks yesterday. The funny thing was that the women made a pretty fair anchor all on her own. Big she was. A huge fall would lift and suspend the belayer. that would be a sight.

[Bronco]

You should've given her a bare bottom spankin for blocking the trail.

[sk]

We run into unsafe crap like that all the time at our in town practice collums. I had to tell a woman yesterday that she needed to get under her climber and off my tarp, or he was going to take a fall and she would break her nose on the rock... She was there with some people who were "teaching" her. DON'T PEOPLE READ???????

[mattp]

quote:

---

Originally posted by erik:

so what do you guys think about tying yourself into a static point on the ground so that if the leader may fall the belayer isnt pulled into the wall??? why not be an attentive belayer and work on dynamic belaying skilzz????

 

and dont block the trail with your dangerous setup!!!

 

thanks!!!

---

Erik -

 

We discussed the proper way-to/whether-or-not-to anchor a belayer in the discussion of belaying directly off an anchor about two months ago. You are probably going to get some agreement here, but being the old guy and all around gaper that I am, I'll tell you I often DO anchor myself when on belay at the base of a climb, and at Index I might use a tree or bush for this purpose. As to the dynamic belay, we also discussed this and plenty of people agreed with you here again, but this gaper says that modern ropes are designed to provide a dynamic belay and I generally want my belayer to hold on or even reel in rather than deliberately allow any slippage. Anyway, my point is that there are lots of safe ways to belay, and your friends at Index may have been incompetent but I wouldn't say that based on the fact that a small female belayer was tied to a tree.

 

As to blocking the trail and becoming insulted when questioned about this? Go to Exit 38 some time. That's just how they do it. Kids these days...

 

Welcome back.

 

Matt

[LUCKY]

What about belaying a leader with a fig 8 in rap mode with out a glove? I have seen it way too often. I have used this tech in alpine climbing but only when there is a lot of rope drag and I want to reel in a lot of rope fast. When on multi pitch or alpine climbing I use the 8 but I use the small hole like a stich plate. When ask what up with belaying with the 8 in rap mode, the responce is this is the only way I know how to belay, funny that is what a belayer told me when offered a gri gri just before they droped me to the dirt!!

RUNNING ROPE:CRATER

[Jason_Martin]

Generally speaking, using the small hole on the eight as a stich plate is much safer than using the eight in rappel mode. Using it in rappel mode is not wrong, just more dangerous.

 

It is far more acceptable to have it in rappel mode when providing a dynamic belay in a snow situation. In other words, intentionally letting a climber fall a short distance while slowing them down and slowly bringing them to a stop. In this truly dynamic instance one is able to preserve a snow seat belay effectively. An eight is a nice device for this.

 

The biggest problem with belaying via an eight in rappel mode is the fact that it simply doesn't offer that much friction. In a steep rock or ice setting this could be a problem.

 

As far as being tied into the ground... One issue that hasn't been addressed is the safety of a belayer. If a person is tied into the ground, they are far less capable of dodging falling rocks or gear.

 

Jason

 

[ 05-13-2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Jason Martin ]

[mattp]

Jason makes a good point about the belayer being able to dodge rocks, and I have worried about this particularly at Vantage but even there I have elected to tie myself in when the belay was up on a pillar somewhere, though I have sometimes tried to set it one column over and then added a gizmo or two to redirect the belay if necessary. You gotta look at the situation and assess what is needed for each particular lead – taking into account the skills of the leader and belayer as well as their relative sizes and the nature of the pitch to be climbed.

[SEF]

Erik, why do you consider an anchored belay unsafe? If it is because the belay is less dynamic, then fundamentally every anchored belay setup for multipitch shares the same danger. Yet virtually every belay off the deck will be anchored. Yes, I know you said you were referring to sport climbing, but the issues of dynamics still apply. I agree with mattp that ropes are designed to provide the dynamics needed. Far worse, of course, would be to belay out from the wall with no anchor.

 

If my partner outweighed me by something in the possible range of 50 - 100%, I would prefer to be anchored when belaying as well, since a whipper by the climber would otherwise launch me off the ground towards the first piece of pro. Another question is whether any added fall distance of the climber may present a danger - with nasty things like pointy rocks or ledges to hit. Conversely, a steeply overhanging route may well benefit from a more dynamic belay, possibly keeping the climber from being abruptly slapped into the wall from a fall. I'm again with mattp; each circumstance should be evaluated by its own merits.

 

Blocking trails with gear or belays is always bad manners. Unfortunately, many people seem oblivious to that.

[Gimpy]

Most of the good points have been made about anchoring a belayer. I think the most important principal would be that every situation is different. I sometimes anchor, sometimes not. One thing I usually do that I didn't see mentioned is that I try not to anchor tight. By leaving a few feet of slack you allow for some play in the set up while still keeping me secure.

 

I admit that I have blocked a trail now and then, but I also make an effort to let people pass and apologize for the inconvenience I have caused. To do less would be rude.

[Jason_Martin]

quote:

---

Far worse, of course, would be to belay out from the wall with no anchor.

---

One should never belay far out from the wall. A belayer should ideally be right underneath a leader as he climbs. Anchoring one's self far out from the wall with a leader climbing is an invitation to all kinds of additional problems and dangers.

 

quote:

---

If my partner outweighed me by something in the possible range of 50 - 100%, I would prefer to be anchored when belaying as well, since a whipper by the climber would otherwise launch me off the ground towards the first piece of pro.

---

If your partner outweighs you by one-hundred percent you should probably do some serious thinking about your choice of partners. However on the flip side, I'd sure tie myself down as well.

 

There is nothing wrong with a dynamic fall where one's partner is lifted off the ground a short distance. However every situation is different. There are definately places where one would be required to tie one's self down to the ground in order to create a safer climbing environment. Generally speaking these situations are not abundant at popular crags.

 

And lastly, as stated above I'm always very concerned about the mobility of a person on the ground... Especially at popular climbing areas. Things such as biners and gear fall all too often.

 

Jason

 

[ 05-13-2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Jason Martin ]

[catbirdseat]

I felt compelled to bring back this old thread because I couldn't disagree more with Jason_Martin's blanket statement that one should NEVER belay away from the wall.

 

In my opinion, one should never belay away from the wall, UNLESS (1) anchored, (2) the first piece is a bomber omnidirectional anchor, such as a properly oriented cam or opposed chocks. If rock fall is a problem, such as at Vantage, you may have a very good reason for not belaying directly below the climber.

 

He cites the need to move around to avoid falling objects. If you are out of the line of fire, then you don't NEED to dodge!

 

"Anchoring one's self far out from the wall with a leader climbing is an invitation to all kinds of additional problems and dangers. "

 

I'm not sure what all of these are, but chief among them is The Zipper Effect. This is not a problem if you know how to set a proper omnidirectional anchor at the base of the wall.

[MysticNacho]

I was under the impression that the mounties teach that you should always anchor yourself to something on the ground. At least, that's the way every mounty I've seen has it set up.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

It would be a real yukfest if someone were to bring back a safety-related question from about, say, a year ago, just, you know, to see if anyone picks up the conversation like it's a new thread. A real yuk-o-rama; yukkity-yuk-yuk.

 

[catbirdseat]

They do teach "always", however, I don't. I believe one should do as the situation dictates. I seldom do on sport routes, unless my belayer is tiny. I sometimes do on single pitch trad routes if the base of the climb is a narrow ledge. I'd say if you are inexperienced, and in doubt, it is probably safer to anchor all your belays, than not to.

[Sphinx]

Yeah, but then you get clueless idiots anchoring off to the stairs at Smith, clipping in to their gear loops!