BigWave Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Has anyone done Town Crier @ Index? Will the aid pitches go clean (sans nailing)? What do you think the clean ratings are? What gear do I need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 yes C2 standard clean aid gear for classic aid routes, offset stuff for pin scars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 You don't really even need the offset stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: yes C2 standard clean aid gear for classic aid routes, offset stuff for pin scars Yes Lambone has the word. To bad you didn't do it 10 years ago; then you could have used fred's old bolts. scetchfest! You will just have to settle for retrobolt bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by AlpineK: quote:Originally posted by Lambone: yes C2 standard clean aid gear for classic aid routes, offset stuff for pin scars Yes Lambone has the word. To bad you didn't do it 10 years ago; then you could have used fred's old bolts. scetchfest! You will just have to settle for retrobolt bullshit. Don't get me started...in my opinion, the route should have been left alone. [ 05-10-2002, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: ScottP ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Q: When you say 'retrobolted', do yo mean that rusty spinners were replaced at the same location, or that additional bolts were added at new locations on the route? I've heard the term used both ways. I'm just curious about the evolution of the climb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 I think that the anchors have been replaced, and many of the lead bolts above the tripple roofs...but I'm not sure if there were any new ones added. Scottp??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: I think that the anchors have been replaced, and many of the lead bolts above the tripple roofs...but I'm not sure if there were any new ones added. Scottp??? My opinion on this subject is in the minority so I'm not going to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 I was just wondering if bolts were added to the original route. I'm not really interested in your opinion, but thanks anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: I was just wondering if bolts were added to the original route. I'm not really interested in your opinion, but thanks anyway. Yes. Before this most recent 'incarnation', there were a couple of 1/4 inch buttonheads added to the belay above the triple overhangs. There might have been others, but those stick out in my mind. Â [ 05-10-2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: ScottP ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Agreed, but on perhaps the most popular multipitch aid route in Washington, they'd have to be replaced sooner or later. Maybe after someone ripped 'em in a huge whipper. Â How bout this scenario? Some folks, in conjuction with the ASCA, rebolted many of the lead bolts on Tangerine Trip in the last year, with permission from the first ascent party(who apparently couldn't believe the old bolts were still there). The 15th + 16th are full rope length rivet ladders. I'm not exactly sure of the details (yet ), but I guess they left the decaying ladder in place, and put a new line of bolts next to it. So if you want the "classic feel," you got it, or if you want safety, you got that to. (there is no other protection, its a blank face) Â Anyway, something to ponder, more info and discussion is here Supertopo.com Definately a sensitive issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Agreed, but on perhaps the most popular multipitch aid route in Washington, they'd have to be replaced sooner or later. Maybe after someone ripped 'em in a huge whipper. If they ripped them in a huge whipper. It's not like there is a huge runout generating a lot of forces if a fall occurs. And Yates Screamers work well for such dicey aid placements. It would be a clean fall anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 True, true...only fall forces generaly decrease as the runnout gets longer. Anyway, whatever I'm not arguing with you...I like spicy aid moves too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: True, true...only fall forces generaly decrease as the runnout gets longer. Anyway, whatever I'm not arguing with you...I like spicy aid moves too. True, true...but I'd rather fall onto one of those bolts from only a few feet above than ten or twenty feet above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Anderson Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 A bit off topic, but this always bugs me: Â Lambone said: quote: fall forces generaly decrease as the runnout gets longer. and Scott P responded: quote: True, true Why does anyone think that fall forces decrease as the runout gets longer? If you are 80 feet up a route and fall five feet above a bolt, the fall factore is 10/80 (.125). Â If you are 80 feet out and 10 feet above a bolt, the fall factor is 20/80 (.25). Â The longer the runout, the greater the fall factor. Â matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 As far as I'm concerned the only "real" adventurous aid climbing is done on first ascents or very early ascents. After that there is so much fixed gear, topos, etc. the character of the route is totally changed. It makes for some great practice and other challenges, like speed climbing and it can dangerous and scary. I just think that retrobolting existing aid routes isn't that big of a deal. In general, If you're looking for total adventure and spicey moves try something new instead of just clipping into manky 50 year old rivets on a trade route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Matt Anderson, I speculate that they really meant "fall factor" as a way to say "dynamic loads on the belay". In other words, the more rope you have out, the more force absorbed by the rope during a fall, the less force applied to the belay (unless directly against the belay).  Just speculation  Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Matt Anderson: A bit off topic, but this always bugs me: Â Lambone said: quote: fall forces generaly decrease as the runnout gets longer. and Scott P responded: quote: True, true Why does anyone think that fall forces decrease as the runout gets longer? If you are 80 feet up a route and fall five feet above a bolt, the fall factore is 10/80 (.125). Â If you are 80 feet out and 10 feet above a bolt, the fall factor is 20/80 (.25). Â The longer the runout, the greater the fall factor. Â matt No, what I said was: "True, true...but I'd rather fall onto one of those bolts from only a few feet above than ten or twenty feet above. Â And the reason I said that is why? Because I believe that a longer fall onto a bolt is going to generate more force than a shorter fall. f=m/a If I fall from 20 feet rather than 5, then my acceleration is greater, therefore the force on the bolt that stops me should be greater. I admit I'm no physicist, but that is my understanding of forces and motion. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 Blah blah blah...anyway, yes, as of last summer, the whole route goes clean. The last 2 pitches (crux flare thing leading into the bolt ladder) can be linked into 1 with a 60m rope. The bolt are spaced out in 1 or 2 spots, so you either have to do a 5.8 free move or hook to reach the next bolt. The triple overhang pitch is mostly all fixed: old rusty pins with old freyed webbing. Have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 Blah, blah,blah...anyway, as of several summers ago, the route goes clean. Â Be wary of beta from those who look like snoop doggy dog and need a topo to climb Orbit. Â [ 05-10-2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: ScottP ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 So mebody get this guy a tampon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 Charlie sez: "Does anyone have a topo for Orbit that they could post on here or email me?" "Better yet, somebody want to meet me at the trailhead tommorow with the topo, then climb it with me?" "still need the topo...." "So, no topo??? " Â Somebody get this guy a tissue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 cool, thanks. I think that was glen's question as well. So the bolts added were belay bolts, not lead bolts... Â I'm sure a huge debate could erupt over the ethics of adding belay bolts vrs. lead bolts to an established route. I'm not gunna start it. i just wanted to know how the route has changed over the years, after all I'm relatively new to these parts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: cool, thanks. I think that was glen's question as well. So the bolts added were belay bolts, not lead bolts... Â I'm sure a huge debate could erupt over the ethics of adding belay bolts vrs. lead bolts to an established route. I'm not gunna start it. i just wanted to know how the route has changed over the years, after all I'm relatively new to these parts... Do consider that those buttonheads were placed long ago. Also consider that the bolt ladder at the top was a conglomeration of really funky stuff; homemade hangers, drive-ins, etc. (Origins unknown.) Â It was really fun clipping this antique stuff. I viewed it as a body weight bolt ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yos Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 quote: Originally posted by ScottP: And the reason I said that is why? Because I believe that a longer fall onto a bolt is going to generate more force than a shorter fall. f=m/a If I fall from 20 feet rather than 5, then my acceleration is greater, therefore the force on the bolt that stops me should be greater. I admit I'm no physicist, but that is my understanding of forces and motion. Â Interesting point of view. But in reality: Â 1) F=MA, not F=M/A 2) Acceleration due to gravity is constant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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