Should Simon Have Cut the Rope?

[Billygoat]

Yes

[Figger_Eight]

Absolutely

[AlpineK]

Yes

[cracked]

Rope?

[tomtom]

Cutting the rope saved Simpson's life.

[Alpine_Tom]

Simpson thought so. In fact, he said that he wrote the book in part to defend Simon from the criticism he was getting about it.

[marylou]

seems crazy but it works.

[scrambled_legs]

Hindsight is 20/20!!! I think either decision in the moment would've been acceptable. Obviously in this situation it worked out for the better and we can say with confidence... yes

[Jason_Martin]

Simon should have known how to pass a knot. If he knew how to do this then he wouldn't have had to cut the rope.

[catbirdseat]

I'm sure he did know, but it's easier said than done. The knot may have already jammed in the belay device at which point the only way to free it would have been to rig a friction knot, cut the rope and retie the knots all with frozen hands.

 

However, it is likely that with an extra 150 ft of rope that Joe would have touched down at the bottom of the cliff.

[forrest_m]

Went to see Touching the Void a few days ago, and on the drive home, it finally occurred to me what Simon could've done instead of cutting the rope. (BTW, I'm not saying that if it were me I would've done "better" than him, hell it's taken me ten years to think of this...)

 

So if you recall, Simon is sitting in a crumbling snow seat, with no possibility of getting any kind of anchor. In the storm, he has lowered Joe over the lip of a huge 'schrund when the knot joining their two ropes comes tight on his belay device. Joe is hanging in free space. The basic problem is how to pass the knot with no slack and no anchor.

 

Here's my idea. The knot is jammed, so both Simon’s hands are free. He takes a free sling and ties a swami belt around his waist. He constructs a 'biner brake on the swami and runs the unweighted side of the rope through it. Now, instead of cutting the rope, he cuts his HARNESS. Weight comes onto the swami and he can lower Joe another 150 feet.

 

Or I just thought of another way that lets him keep his harness: tie a prussik onto the tight side, tie an overhand on the loose side and clip together. Construct a ‘biner brake connected to the harness ABOVE the overhand knot. Now cut the rope between the two knots.

 

OK, I can think of some problems – both solutions would shock load the shitty snow stance, if Joe still went into the crevasse and was still dangling in free space, then Simon still have had to cut the rope and would’ve been left with nothing instead of 150’. If Joe didn’t go in, Simon would’ve ended up downclimbing to the lip of the bergschrund and could easily have fallen over it. If Simon had to wait until morning to attempt to get down, Joe could have died of exposure without the protection of the crevasse. Who knows? But I can’t resist trying to think of some way out…

[Jason_Martin]

In the movie Joe says it was eighty feet to the ground from where he was hanging. So the extra 150 feet would have been acceptable to get Joe down.

 

Many climbers do not know how to pass a knot. Or if they do know how to pass a knot they are incapable of doing it quickly. In the book, the part where Joe is hanging appears to go on forever. If Simon had experience with any type of knot passing or belay escape (much more difficult from a decomposing snow seat) the amount of time which elapsed between the time they lost contact and the time which the rope was cut would have been more than sufficent.

 

If the knot were jammed in the belay plate there are still ways to "unjam" it. Once again I don't think Simon knew how to do this. In addition, were the knot jammed I think it would have been mentioned in either the book or the movie, but it wasn't.

 

The crux of the matter is that Simon made a choice based on what he knew how to do and didn't know how to do. Some basic rescue techniques were overlooked and this is ultimately what resulted in the extension of Joe's epic.

 

After cutting the rope, Simon didn't even bother to check and see where Joe's body was. Had he looked down the hole he would have found Joe to be alive. This is yet another major oversight on his part.

 

On top of all this, Simon has been involved in other incidents throughout the years which make me question his abilities... So I really don't think he knew how to pass a knot or escape his belay...

 

Jason

[chelle]

Interesting thoughts Forrest. It's hard to know if he could have been that creative given that he was dehydrated, probably hypothermic, and likely scared and frustrated after trying to hang on to the stance for so long.

[Jason_Martin]

The shitty snow stance held him for hours... There is a simple way to pass a knot using cordellettes or slings which is often taught in self rescue courses which would not shockload the stance.

 

Jason

[minx]

i saw this movie yesterday and read the book quite sometime ago.

 

ultimately it seems hard to judge whether it was right or wrong. fact is no matter what solutions might have been possible, they were both exhausted and dehydrated thus probably not thinking as clearly as they might in other circumstances. i think looking at in terms of right and wrong might be a bit too rigid. i'm sure we'd all like to think we could've found a different solution but most of us probably wouldn't. regardless of simon's failures after that climb, his lack of knowledge/ability to pass that knot; i don't think he was wrong for cutting the rope.

 

the one thing i did wonder about after reading the book: was simpson's staunch defense of simon's actions in someway related to the enormous emotions he felt for simon when the latter finally found him outside of camp?

[lummox]

i saw this movie yesterday and read the book quite sometime ago.

 

ultimately it seems hard to judge whether it was right or wrong. fact is no matter what solutions might have been possible, they were both exhausted and dehydrated thus probably not thinking as clearly as they might in other circumstances. i think looking at in terms of right and wrong might be a bit too rigid. i'm sure we'd all like to think we could've found a different solution but most of us probably wouldn't. regardless of simon's failures after that climb, his lack of knowledge/ability to pass that knot; i don't think he was wrong for cutting the rope.

 

the one thing i did wonder about after reading the book: was simpson's staunch defense of simon's actions in someway related to the enormous emotions he felt for simon when the latter finally found him outside of camp?

you have offered a cogent and thoughtful analysis of what the young mr yates experienced during the emotional decision making that ultimately lead to mr simpsons unfortunate injuries. it is interesting to note the small stature of the indigenous donkeys that the subsequent evacuation team utilized to carry the nonambulatory mr simpson out of the wilderness. though not comparable to the grasscutter ants ability to carry heavy loads the donkey is nevertheless quite an impressive 'beast of burden'.

 

do i win the write like catbirdseat prize now?

 

i woulda cut the rope and laughed maniacally as the fuker fell. then shagged his girlfriend and talk shit about him behind his back.

[catbirdseat]

i saw this movie yesterday and read the book quite sometime ago.

 

ultimately it seems hard to judge whether it was right or wrong. fact is no matter what solutions might have been possible, they were both exhausted and dehydrated thus probably not thinking as clearly as they might in other circumstances. i think looking at in terms of right and wrong might be a bit too rigid. i'm sure we'd all like to think we could've found a different solution but most of us probably wouldn't. regardless of simon's failures after that climb, his lack of knowledge/ability to pass that knot; i don't think he was wrong for cutting the rope.

 

the one thing i did wonder about after reading the book: was simpson's staunch defense of simon's actions in someway related to the enormous emotions he felt for simon when the latter finally found him outside of camp?

you have offered a cogent and thoughtful analysis of what the young mr yates experienced during the emotional decision making that ultimately lead to mr simpsons unfortunate injuries. it is interesting to note the small stature of the indigenous donkeys that the subsequent evacuation team utilized to carry the nonambulatory mr simpson out of the wilderness. though not comparable to the grasscutter ants ability to carry heavy loads the donkey is nevertheless quite an impressive 'beast of burden'.

 

do i win the write like catbirdseat prize now?

 

i woulda cut the rope and laughed maniacally as the fuker fell. then shagged his girlfriend and talk shit about him behind his back.

Supply a few caps and you're up for a Pulitzer Prize.

[vegetablebelay]

And burned his clothes too.

[Figger_Eight]

Yeah...there are ways Simon could've passed the knot, but considering the climb they just completed (which was repeated not too long ago), his frostbitten hands, how completely exhausted and dehydrated they were I don't know if he was capable of much else. It's a good case study for sure, but I'm not going to add my name to Simon's list of detractors.

[lummox]

And burned his clothes too.

think man think. sell the clothes to locals or trade for some cheeba.

[To_The_Top]

One thing that was interesting is that Joe said they only had one knife, and if he had it he wouldn't cut the rope, and if he was Simon, he would.

I think they were pretty hammered coming down, I am rereading the book and they were in bad shape coming down, as the movie illustrates.

[Stefan]

Went to see Touching the Void a few days ago, and on the drive home, it finally occurred to me what Simon could've done instead of cutting the rope. (BTW, I'm not saying that if it were me I would've done "better" than him, hell it's taken me ten years to think of this...)

 

So if you recall, Simon is sitting in a crumbling snow seat, with no possibility of getting any kind of anchor. In the storm, he has lowered Joe over the lip of a huge 'schrund when the knot joining their two ropes comes tight on his belay device. Joe is hanging in free space. The basic problem is how to pass the knot with no slack and no anchor.

 

Here's my idea. The knot is jammed, so both Simon’s hands are free. He takes a free sling and ties a swami belt around his waist. He constructs a 'biner brake on the swami and runs the unweighted side of the rope through it. Now, instead of cutting the rope, he cuts his HARNESS. Weight comes onto the swami and he can lower Joe another 150 feet.

 

Or I just thought of another way that lets him keep his harness: tie a prussik onto the tight side, tie an overhand on the loose side and clip together. Construct a ‘biner brake connected to the harness ABOVE the overhand knot. Now cut the rope between the two knots.

 

OK, I can think of some problems – both solutions would shock load the shitty snow stance, if Joe still went into the crevasse and was still dangling in free space, then Simon still have had to cut the rope and would’ve been left with nothing instead of 150’. If Joe didn’t go in, Simon would’ve ended up downclimbing to the lip of the bergschrund and could easily have fallen over it. If Simon had to wait until morning to attempt to get down, Joe could have died of exposure without the protection of the crevasse. Who knows? But I can’t resist trying to think of some way out…

 

Interesting thoughts, but would Simon had enough time to do any of these options on his crumbling snow seat?

 

IMO hindsight is 20/20.

 

An accident happened before "the accident". I would like to know more about that.

[ken4ord]

Given the circumstances, altitude, fatigue, bad stance, he did the only thing he probably had time to do before he went for a big ride like Joe did.

[forrest_m]

Jason Martin wrote:

In addition, were the knot jammed I think it would have been mentioned in either the book or the movie, but it wasn't.

 

FWIW, the movie shows him rummaging for the knife with both hands… anyway, I’d bet dollars to donuts that after holding body weight for an over an hour with an icy 9 mm rope (with mittens), the knot was hard up against his belay device. Slow slippage until the knot jams seems almost inevitable in that situation.

 

If the knot were jammed in the belay plate there are still ways to "unjam" it.

 

The typical systems I know to pass a knot all require that you have enough slack in the system to “lower” onto the passing system and thus unweight your primary belay device. Can you describe how you unjam the knot without an anchor? If you have a solid anchor, you can move yourself downhill to transfer tension to the friction knot, but Simon WAS the anchor, so I don’t think that would work. Could you do a mini-Z to untension the rope, using yourself as the anchor? Even if it's physically possible, that would be pretty complicated given the other circumstances. That’s why both my scenarios include cutting something with the knife, it’s the Universal Tension Release Tool. ;-) Cutting the rope has the virtue of simplicity.

 

Seriously, it’s always worth remembering that if you screw up your self-rescue system and forget to leave a tension release system in place, you can always cut something to effect the transfer – just be careful with sharp blades and tensioned ropes!

[David_Parker]

As I was watching the movie and as soon as Simon began to lower two rope lengths with them tied together, I asked my self why Simon didn't grab Joes belay device and as he came to the knot have the second one set up on the other side of the knot already before unclipping the first belay device. This would have added a margin of saftey for the brief moment he was changing over while Joe attached himself (marginally) to the mountain briefly during the passing of the knot.

 

If they had this set up going when Joe was hanging, the knot would have been tight but there would be a second belay device already in place on the slack side on the other side of the jammed knot. He could have cut his belay loop or part of his harness as Forrest mentioned and the second belay device would be ready to catch the rope already.

 

But as mentioned hindsight is 20/20 and it was a situation where clear thinking is seriously compromised so we have NO right to critcize. This dicussion however has merit as we are thinking about this stuff and who knows, some day you may have to tap into this knowledge.