To Bolt or Not to Bolt?

[Crackbolter]

I am going to stir it up some more. Work is slow today and I am bored. Please entertain me. Who thinks that it is not okay to drill into fresh virgin granite void of cracks? This is a serious discussion so if you give me a B.S. answer I will be very angry and I will have to open a can of whoopass on you.

Also, Is it okay to drink and climb?

Is it okay to puff on the kind green bud with lots of purply hairs and cough for ten minutes and then climb gripped?

 

I would like to hear REAL answers not just some jubberish! Behave!

[Rodchester]

"fresh virgin granite void of cracks"

 

What exactly do you mean by fresh virgin granite? I assume you are referring to a crag setting? Not alpine...right?

 

Do you mean never been attempted?

 

Assuming it is in a crag setting that is not used for other purposes and it is truely unprotectable by trad gear, I don't have a problem with bolting in sport routes.

 

If it is 5.12 gear and the bolter can't climb it with gear, but could with bolts? Bolting it is BS.

 

I really don't have a problem with sport routes or climbers...so long as they climb sport routes. Leave the trad to the trad. I clip bolts some times and I have fun doing it. But I am opposed to bolting trad routes. And I am opposed to bolting in the alpine setting. (with minor exceptions for a route that might require one or two bolts at unprotectable spots - can't mname any but I guess I could see it).

 

I also place value in th first ascentionist's style. But a sporto bolting up a clearly trad line because he was first is BS.

 

I am rambling...time for me to listen.

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crackbolter:

Who thinks that it is not okay to drill into fresh virgin granite void of cracks?

---

It is just not that simple as "void of cracks". There are a lot of other things that should be considered before the stone is altered in a permanent way. With a little thought I bet you could make the list as well as I.

quote:

---

Also, Is it okay to drink

and climb?

---

I don't care if you put boating swivel cupholders on both sides of your helmet with a 40 in each and crazy straws so you can drink non-stop while you're climbing, as long as:

1) You pick up the empties,

2) You don't drop rocks on anyone,

3) You don't alter the rock,

4) I don't get involved in your rescue/body recovery.

quote:

---

Is it okay to puff on the kind green bud with lots of purply hairs and cough for ten minutes and then climb gripped?

---

Hey that shit's illegal . And really a lot of fun . Ditto on the 4 qualifications above.

[Guest]

This is Gaper_#1,

 

You should only bolt at Smith Rocks and chosspiles like that.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

[Colin]

If any of you have climbed the South Ridge of Ingall's Peak (North peak) in the last few years, I wouldn't believe you if you told me that you didn't use any of the bolts.

 

Those big, Metolius bolts are placed right next to cracks! I think that this is perfectly acceptable. Just imagine how much more severe those Mountaineer Clusterfucks would be if every party on that very popular route had to build their own belay/rap anchors. I doubt that they ruin anyone's wilderness experience, for if you wanted wilderness you wouldn't be on the South Ridge of Ingall's anyway.

 

As for bolting rock where there aren't cracks:

Some say that lines that require bolting just weren't meant to be climbed - If that is the case with you, then don't climb them! If a new route (a legitimately new route, not a 30 ft. variation) requires a few bolts to be relatively safe, then I think they are perfectly justified.

[Guest]

This is Gaper_#1,

 

I have soloed this Ingalls Peak without those bolts. No need for them.

 

Colin you are wrong. Bolts next to cracks are not the way of the future.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

[Guest]

This is Gaper_#1,

 

Crackbolter, it is obvious what you are looking for when you post this. That is much spray and also some sort of thumbs up from the climbing community to bolt your non line climbs. That way your ego is still ok. Word has it you don't bolt anyway. Nice troll is all this is. You know bolting cracks is bad and the bolts will be removed. Bolt war is on! I am contacting Pope and Retrosaurus. We should start the removal at Careno Crag and Sam Hill! Perhaps that will make some real controversy and not your talk of trash and no action.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

[Sir_Donald]

As sad as it is to say, one of my favorite routes in the Bugs had bolts all over it, McTech arete, and I have done all the classic trad climbs there I could handle/ I enjoyed the setting, the rock, the movement, and wouldn't change those memories for the world. As an aside, have any of ya'll ever been on bloody fingers - 10A in the city of rocks, twenty feet to the right is a beautiful piece of face climbing put up by Jeff Lowe called New Toy. total of two bolts in 80 feet. Nobody climbs it - nobody, and why - it is too damn dangerous and a fall will kill ya, so I ask - has the first ascensionist done the climbing world justice - what gives him the right to dictate the "off limits - unless you have a death wish" mentality? Unfair and sad - on public land and a scarce resource as it is - and totally selfish IMHO - but who am I to say it....

[Guest]

I'm sick of this topic. Modern route bolting comes down to one thing- some lame-ass is trying to get his name in a guidebook, thinks little betty boulder will finally go out with him if he does. There are so many sport routes, there is no reason to put up any more. If you're a sport climbers running out of routes to climb, get off of your ass and get better- or, get some balls and try a few cracks- head to the mountains- do something- maybe stick that bosch up your ass and let her spin for a bit, that outa make ya feel better!

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Colin:

If any of you have climbed the South Ridge of Ingall's Peak (North peak) in the last few years, I wouldn't believe you if you told me that you didn't use any of the bolts.Those big, Metolius bolts are placed right next to cracks!

---

Thanks for the heads up on the convenience bolts. They are now on the list awaiting my new light weight restoration equipment. Would you believe me if I told you that I was going to solo that route just to pop those lil F'ers out.

 

quote:

---

I think that this is perfectly acceptable. Just imagine how much more severe those Mountaineer Clusterfucks would be if every party on that very popular route had to build their own belay/rap anchors.

---

If this isn't classic rationalization, then nothing is. These are convenience bolts. Wouldn't it be handy if the whole climb was bolted.

 

quote:

---

I doubt that they ruin anyone's wilderness experience, for if you wanted wilderness you wouldn't be on the South Ridge of Ingall's anyway.

---

And if you wanted a wilderness experience you wouldn't climb the Beckey Route on Liberty Bell Mtn either. Let's bolt that. I suppose that would be "perfectly acceptable" too.

 

Wake up and smell the napalm.

[Colin]

Yes, they are convenience bolts - I agree, and I still support them.

 

The distinct difference with the Beckey route is that almost everyone descends the direct route from the notch (which does have bolted rappels!) rather than descending the Beckey route.

[Crackhead]

I don't remember bolts on the mctech arete. Where were they? Mctech is all cracks. Obviosly my memory needs help?

[Colin]

Also Mitch,

 

A picture you took on Polar Circus shows up on the front page every once in a while.

 

I bet you didn't use any of those bolted stations on your way down. After all, you could find knifeblade placements near all of them. You'd certainly be doing the climbing community a great service if you went and chopped those too!

[Crackhead]

Hey Retrosaurus... Let's simul it, I wanna pop some bolts off too! How about we pop off every other bolt on Condorphamine addiction in Leavenworth too! oh what fun.

 

Slam two beers, puff a bong hit, and there is a ten minute window in which your leading ability jumps a grade and a half! I never said it was safe though.

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Colin:

Also Mitch,

 

A picture you took on Polar Circus shows up on the front page every once in a while.

 

I bet

you

didn't use any of those bolted stations on your way down. After all, you could find knifeblade placements near all of them. You'd certainly be doing the climbing community a great service if you went and chopped those too!

---

Must have been Louise Falls or Pilsner Pillar. I have yet to climb Polar Circus. Not sure I agree with those bolted rap stations either. But they do cut down on the pile of sling from V-thread anchors and formerly conduit anchors that drop to the ground at the base of ice climbs when they melt out.

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crackhead:

Hey Retrosaurus... Let's simul it, I wanna pop some bolts off too! How about we pop off every other bolt on Condorphamine addiction in Leavenworth too! oh what fun.

 

Slam two beers, puff a bong hit, and there is a ten minute window in which your leading ability jumps a grade and a half! I never said it was safe though.

---

And every other belay.

[pope]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sir Donald:

As an aside, have any of ya'll ever been on bloody fingers - 10A in the city of rocks, twenty feet to the right is a beautiful piece of face climbing put up by Jeff Lowe called New Toy. total of two bolts in 80 feet. Nobody climbs it - nobody, and why - it is too damn dangerous and a fall will kill ya, so I ask - has the first ascensionist done the climbing world justice - what gives him the right to dictate the "off limits - unless you have a death wish" mentality? Unfair and sad - on public land and a scarce resource as it is - and totally selfish IMHO - but who am I to say it....

---

I respect your opinion about that route, and I'm not trying to sound like a tough guy/trad man or whatever. Believe it or not, I remember the route well. It is probably one of the few bolted climbs I did (in four trips to the City of Rocks) that I do remember. Oddly enough, keeping my thing together on a climb like gives me a satisfaction that I can't find on the typical routes on Parking Lot Rock.

 

These days, super-safe and heavily bolted routes are abundant. They are the norm. To echo an idea that MattP has brought up a couple of times, the value of an area, or of a particular type of route, is inversely proportional to is abundance. I think leaving Jeff Lowe's route in its "classic" status provides a challenge (and also a sort of interactive history lesson) that is increasingly more difficult to find. Please, let's keep a few of these routes in the mix (although replacing the old bolts with 1/2" bolts, in the original holes, is both acceptable and encouraged).

[pope]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Colin:

Those big, Metolius bolts are placed right next to cracks! I think that this is perfectly acceptable. Just imagine how much more severe those Mountaineer Clusterfucks would be if every party on that very popular route had to build their own belay/rap anchors. I doubt that they ruin anyone's wilderness experience, for if you wanted wilderness you wouldn't be on the South Ridge of Ingall's anyway.

 

---

Gee Colin, while your mind is still young and flexible, please reconsider what you're promoting (unless you're joking). Tolerating these kinds of adaptations is problematic not only because it becomes contagious, but also because when we artificially adapt the mountains to improve access/ease the difficulties, it becomes difficult to distinguish between which modifications are acceptable and which are not.

 

Please read the recently referenced ethical discussions over routes at Smith Rock, where creating holds is in the middle of the debate. Seems ridiculous, but once you accept some modifications, how do you rationally forbid others? Chipping and other techniques for creating holds can be justified by many of the same arguments (if you accept them) that get flung around on this message board in support of bolting.

 

Finally, let's suppose the route you describe (or the one on Lundin) weren't sanitized with goofy bolts. Would some of the Mounties then decide that climbing is too serious a game? Would their rosters shrink when they find out that climbing is actually demanding? Damn!

 

[ 04-23-2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: pope ]

[David_Parker]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Colin:

If any of you have climbed the South Ridge of Ingall's Peak (North peak) in the last few years, I wouldn't believe you if you told me that you didn't use any of the bolts.

 

Those big, Metolius bolts are placed right next to cracks! I think that this is perfectly acceptable. Just imagine how much more severe those Mountaineer Clusterfucks would be if every party on that very popular route had to build their own belay/rap anchors.

---

I think someone should chop all those bolts and install a few webcams on the route. Wouldn't it be amusing to watch those mountaineers reaction when they discovered their bolts were gone!!!

[pope]

Bolts allow the Mounties to function on the S. Ridge....and a wheel-chair ramp would allow my grandma access....and if we just get some heavy equipment up there, we could level it and do some kind of REI catalogue photo shoot/lawn darts tournament. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeh!

[Guest]

This is Gaper_#1,

 

Colin, it would be wrong to place too many bolts. Then perhaps the S Face of Prusik's Stanley Burgner route should be bolted too? Let's get a grip on things here people.

 

I think that the only reason those bolts are on Ingalls is that it is so accessible and moderate of a grade. If it was on Slesse up high then no way. Only Beckey's party was gung ho enough to place a bolt there that is falling out and will certainly be lost in the dustbins some day. Modern gear is good enough there.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

[Dru]

After this summer I will be selling that Beckey bolt from slesse on eBay as a historical artifact. with enough avatars i can bid the price up sky high.

[Crackbolter]

So far so good.

Here is some opinion:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Yes, they are convenience bolts - I agree, and I still support them."

 

I do not agree with convenience bolts. Bolts should be used to conserve cracks. A good example of convenience bolts are definately the ones on Ingalls. I am wondering what would be better, conserve the rock or conserve the mountaineer folks? I guess I wouldn't think twice if I had to pass them climbing up a mountain and now adays I don't even ask, I just pass. I would rather conserve the rock.

 

Another good example of convenience bolts are on Princely Amitions. Nice 3/8" with stout chains. Not necessary to say the least. There is a sweet platform to belay from and a nice crack that would openly take a #3 metolious (which used to have a R.R. spike we had to tie off) You could also sling that freestanding pillar and be amply protected.

 

"Please read the recently referenced ethical discussions over routes at Smith Rock, where creating holds is in the middle of the debate. "

 

Now Smith rock is a great example of overbolting but I will admit that I kind of like it in that Basalt mud. I suck at placing gear in those cracks and am always sketch moving past it. I usually stick to 5.10 trad or easier so I never have to test if that stuff actually holds.

 

What about Vantage? Is there a place for bolts there? Remember the Sunshine wall. Skip em or clip em. A nice crack just an arms length from that route and more bolts on that one route than on the I-90 bridge!

 

Pope said:

"As an aside, have any of ya'll ever been on bloody fingers - 10A in the city of rocks, twenty feet to the right is a beautiful piece of face climbing put up by Jeff Lowe called New Toy. total of two bolts in 80 feet. Nobody climbs it - nobody, and why - it is too damn dangerous and a fall will kill ya, so I ask - has the first ascensionist done the climbing world justice - what gives him the right to dictate the "off limits - unless you have a death wish" mentality? Unfair and sad - on public land and a scarce resource as it is - and totally selfish IMHO - but who am I to say it...."

 

I think Pope has the best point. Do we want the climbing community to have this amount of commitment? I personally have climbed enough routes to know that at least more than once i've been 20, 30,40 or even as much as 50 feet off the ground and could have easily had a groundfall that was fatal. Or what about on routes where there are slabs to fall on. Just low enough angle and high enough to be fatal. (Rogers Corner? You could flick that rusty spinner at the top of the slab and it would spin all day!)

 

Gaper said:

"You know bolting cracks is bad and the bolts will be removed. "

 

Lets look at Index again, Dana's arch ring a bell?

 

Why was it bolted? I think the answer lies deep in this ethical debate. To conserve the crack. So pitons are never used again.

 

Is it okay to use pitons to protect cracks that can not be protected by removable/conventional gear? Are bolts replacing pitons yet still degrading rock?

 

I haven't yet established an opinion. I do know that I sure like just clipping draws to fixed anchors but the look lousy in a natural setting.

 

Please, lets discuss this further.

[mattp]

I don't think there are very many guys (are there any?) who would justify installing a line of bolts simply by noting that there was a crackless expanse of rock awaiting climbers' attention. Obviously, there have to be other compelling reasons why that particular climb will contribute something to the overall mix of climbing experiences available because there can really be no other justification for using public resources that way. However, even if you conclude that the proposed line will be the most unique and coolest climb that there ever was, you also have to weigh the value of your new creation against the permanent destruction of that piece of stone, the aesthetic impact of your new hardware, the political and social ramifications of establishing that climb at that location, the historical contribution, and a host of other factors. I think the debates here largely reflect the fact that we all have different values and the cost benefit analysis won't come out the same for any two people. Sometimes, however, the debate can become mired in some kind of ego battle. I don't think "I can climb it without the bolts so you should too" really cuts it any more than "I know how to install a good sport route and I'm going to put up my climbs despite what everybody thinks." Sure, one argument promotes less impact and the other more, but both arguments avoid the real issues: what is the value of the bolts in question and what are the impacts.

 

I agree with Pope that routes like New Toy should be maintained. It would have been selflish for someone to have bolted all of City of Rocks in that fashion and then to publish a guidebook that was essentially a testimonial to their boldness, but that is not what happened. Maybe Lowe was making a statement or maybe he was just having a good day, but it sounds to me as if he left something that, if maintained, invites climbers to test their selves.

 

As to those bolts on Ingalls, I too can/have climbed that route without clipping any gear(we're talking about the S. Face, right?) but I don't think a pair of belay/rappel bolts is so offensive that they should be removed. That climb is a great introductory peak climb, and while it would in my view be better without "convenience" bolts, their existence may in fact lead to the enlightenment of some sport climbers or novice climbers who feel safe trying the climb because it has fixed anchors and then notice that all the uncluttered rock nearby is very beautiful and has a value entirely missing from Exit 38.

[chucK]

Another example of very convenient convenience bolts:

Diedre belay bolts. You get to chill on a nice ledge instead of hanging in a scrunchy corner. Sure speeds things up. Makes things much more comfortable (especially for parties > 2).

 

More South Ridge of Ingals discussion:

I did the South Ridge of Ingals before the bolts were there. There were a couple of "fixed" pitons (one was removable by one finger). We were stuck behind a mountie team that day. Everybody rapped down an alternate route. I'll bet the new bolts actually clog things up MORE by inviting people to rap the route.

 

That route right of bloody fingers:

Can't that Jeff Lowe route be toproped? How come that is not good enough for you? Right now, you can choose between very dangerous (lead) or very safe (toprope). Why the need to elimnate the very dangerous choice to produce a sorta dangerous choice? Surely you can envision toproped contrivance methods that can produce a sorta dangerous experience without erasing history and adding more shinies to the stone?