debate fodder: lots of new climbers

[AlpineK]

[mattp]

scott_harpell said:

... it seems rather hypocritical for us to lambast others who are not as nature saavy, yet do something that is destructive to the rock. non-climbers see this hypocricy, so why can't we?

 

I'm with you on the self-centered and self-serving nature of many climbers, Scott, but most non-climbers see nothing wrong with bolts -- the people who get bent out of shape about this issue are almost exclusively climbers. And pretty much the only time it ever becomes an issue for land managers is when some climbers get into a row over it. That doesn't mean it is not a real issue, but your statement here is damn near 100% wrong. Like RuMR says - some of the peripheral impacts associated with sport climbing are real issues to folks other than climbers, but the bolts themselves are generally not.

[RuMR]

jkassidy said:

Dru said:

additionally, bolting does not cause an environmental impact...period...its inert steel...

 

the hole is rock damage

a good argument for keeping bolt counts low by placing gear wherever possible

 

i would like to see someone argue now that a route with 6 bolts bolted drilling by hand on lead, is better than the same route put up on rappel - i haven't seen that argument regurgitated pro and con for a while!

 

Well, it goes like this: Given that any pussy can drill on rappel, those 6 bolt holes get multiplied by the scores of jokers who think that bolting on rap creates a lead. Now instead, if we agree that "leads" must be established on lead, and that bolts must be drilled by hand, just how often are those six holes going to appear? Answer me this, oh clever boy!

 

No reason to start using terms like "pussy"...there's a good number of "pussy" sportclimbers that would wipe the floor w/ you...I'm not one of them, so save the "are you threatening me" speech? I'm not...

[pope]

RuMR said:

Dru said:

additionally, bolting does not cause an environmental impact...period...its inert steel...

 

the hole is rock damage

a good argument for keeping bolt counts low by placing gear wherever possible

 

i would like to see someone argue now that a route with 6 bolts bolted drilling by hand on lead, is better than the same route put up on rappel - i haven't seen that argument regurgitated pro and con for a while!

 

Yeah...that 3/8 + 1/16 hole...catastrophic damage, yup...earthending annihilation...

 

It's not just the hole. It's the damned shiny metal thing which defiles the aesthetics of a rock wall. They don't kill salmon. Instead, this is known as "visual pollution", and that is precisely the environmental impact bolts impose.

 

Then there's the whole "murder of the impossible" thing, which has nothing to do with environmental considerations, but which questions, "At what point, and after which alterations, will we decide that we've made mountain climbing too easy? Bolts? Chipped holds? Gondolas?"

[scott_harpell]

RuMR said:

scott_harpell said:

RuMR said:

Please scott...tell me what the impact of a 3/8 inch stud is on a monolithic chunk of granite...This will be "enlightening"...

 

it is unatractive, unnatural and it is a hole in the rock! i got into climbing as a teenager as an extension of backpacking that i have done since i was 5. I would have been pissed then to see a bolt in a rock. how self-centered to think that "we" the climbers of the rock are the only ones that have a say in how that rock is treated?

 

But scott...everything you pointed out is an aesthetic issue...its not an environmental one in the sense that its altering the environment...

 

Europe...its accepted to see bolts on crags...different aesthetic value...

 

I'm not arguing with your aesthetic point of view...those are personal...just don't tell me its causing a true impact...

 

nature is all about the aesthetics! why should we ruin someone elses perfectly natural view so that we can feel great that we have conquered a rock that without bolts we did not have the brass to climb? a perfect example is snow creek wall. i know of many old timers (the ones who got me started hiking as a wee lass) that pass SCW. They are supposed to just deal with this visual impact as a consequence of an incredibly small fraction of the populations actions? egocentric at best. manifest destiny in the verticle realm is more like it.

[Dru]

mattp said:

scott_harpell said:

... it seems rather hypocritical for us to lambast others who are not as nature saavy, yet do something that is destructive to the rock. non-climbers see this hypocricy, so why can't we?

 

I'm with you on the self-centered and self-serving nature of many climbers, Scott, but most non-climbers see nothing wrong with bolts -- the people who get bent out of shape about this issue are almost exclusively climbers. And pretty much the only time it ever becomes an issue for land managers is when some climbers get into a row over it. That doesn't mean it is not a real issue, but your statement here is damn near 100% wrong. Like RuMR says - some of the peripheral impacts associated with sport climbing are real issues to folks other than climbers, but the bolts themselves are generally not.

 

there are plenty of areas near Las Vegas where it was hikers who complained to the authorities because of the sudden proliferation of fixed draws, trails, landscaping, lawn chairs etc as remote limestone amphiteaters werre manicured into the next outdoor sport gym

 

and wasn't it CAVERS who complained about the lava tubes near bend? or are they just a type of climber

 

but different climate- different impact - not saying that hikers are complaining about Exit 38, they are probably unable to see the bolts under the curtain of moss and slugs anyway

[RuMR]

jkassidy said:

Then there's the whole "murder of the impossible" thing, which has nothing to do with environmental considerations, but which questions, "At what point, and after which alterations, will we decide that we've made mountain climbing too easy? Bolts? Chipped holds? Gondolas?"

 

Ok...you've gone waaaay too hyperbolic on me...Yes, jkassidy or whatever reincarnation you want to call yourself...i would feel very satisfied taking an escalator to the top of Just Do It and would run home to spray on cc.com about my heroic ascent...

[AlpineK]

I'm not convinced of the argument that any joker is going to start drilling bolts.

 

You've gotta have the bucks for the cordless drill and bits and batteries and all that hardwear. Then you've gotta find a line to set, and take days off from climbing to do the route setting.

 

It seems that this activity is self limiting.

[mattp]

Scott - do you really have friends that can see bolts on Snow Creek Wall from the trail? That is some serious eyesight. I can see rappel slings on a tree or flake from the trail, but when someone replaces them with two bolts and some chain I can't see them.

[scott_harpell]

but most non-climbers see nothing wrong with bolts -- the people who get bent out of shape about this issue are almost exclusively climbers.

 

that is just wrong. i know many hikers and scramblers that take issue with bolts; especially in places like SCW.

[RuMR]

scott_harpell said:

RuMR said:

scott_harpell said:

RuMR said:

Please scott...tell me what the impact of a 3/8 inch stud is on a monolithic chunk of granite...This will be "enlightening"...

 

it is unatractive, unnatural and it is a hole in the rock! i got into climbing as a teenager as an extension of backpacking that i have done since i was 5. I would have been pissed then to see a bolt in a rock. how self-centered to think that "we" the climbers of the rock are the only ones that have a say in how that rock is treated?

 

But scott...everything you pointed out is an aesthetic issue...its not an environmental one in the sense that its altering the environment...

 

Europe...its accepted to see bolts on crags...different aesthetic value...

 

I'm not arguing with your aesthetic point of view...those are personal...just don't tell me its causing a true impact...

 

nature is all about the aesthetics! why should we ruin someone elses perfectly natural view so that we can feel great that we have conquered a rock that without bolts we did not have the brass to climb? a perfect example is snow creek wall. i know of many old timers (the ones who got me started hiking as a wee lass) that pass SCW. They are supposed to just deal with this visual impact as a consequence of an incredibly small fraction of the populations actions? egocentric at best. manifest destiny in the verticle realm is more like it.

 

I would call it "resource management" for the masses...face it, climbing is goiing the way skiing went in the early sixties and the way snowboarding went in the early 80's...its just becoming popular as an activity...Just like europe...

[mattp]

There may have been some problems identified by hikers in las Vegas, Dru, but if some idiot sport climbers put up a line of bolts immediateliy above a hiking trail I would be one of those climbers who would join them in protesting. For the most part, at nearly all climbing areas in the country, this has not been an issue that was raised by non-climbers. And we talked about that Bend cave a month ago when yo umade the same statement and it was pointed out that CHALK was the problem there that led to the closure, not bolts.

[RuMR]

mattp said:

Scott - do you really have friends that can see bolts on Snow Creek Wall from the trail? That is some serious eyesight. I can see rappel slings on a tree or flake from the trail, but when someone replaces them with two bolts and some chain I can't see them.

 

Scott's got those sub-25 eyeballs...they haven't gone bad yet...

[scott_harpell]

mattp said:

Scott - do you really have friends that can see bolts on Snow Creek Wall from the trail? That is some serious eyesight. I can see rappel slings on a tree or flake from the trail, but when someone replaces them with two bolts and some chain I can't see them.

 

you can see the chains (thanks to the new rap stations)

[arlen]

MisterE said:

RuMR said:

jkassidy said:

RuMR said:

jkassidy said:

JayB said:

jkassidy said:

[Dru]

well there weren't any gear placements in the caves were there? so they didnt get the opportunity to complain about trad climbers

 

[AlpineK]

Shit man I run it out sometimes cause I can't see the bolts till I'm 10' past them and scared.

[pope]

AlpineK said:

I'm not convinced of the argument that any joker is going to start drilling bolts.

 

You've gotta have the bucks for the cordless drill and bits and batteries and all that hardwear. Then you've gotta find a line to set, and take days off from climbing to do the route setting.

 

It seems that this activity is self limiting.

 

Yup. Gotta have the bucks, for the fancy power drill. And the hardware. But say, once you've demonstrated competence by acquiring these items (sarcasm, for the slower readers), then, and only then, by Gum, should you consider yourself a ROUTE PIONEER.

 

Kurt, you've accused me of demonstrating poor logic, given my mathematical training. But, you're also a mathematician. When we gonna get som' dat good logic out of you?

[Dru]

AlpineK said:

Shit man I run it out sometimes cause I can't see the bolts till I'm 10' past them and scared.

 

HEY THE BOLT IS OVER THERE!!!!! your belayer yells.

 

Maybe Piep-Bolts are the solution. The pinging would indicate your proximity.

[pope]

arlen said:

MisterE said:

RuMR said:

jkassidy said:

RuMR said:

jkassidy said:

JayB said:

jkassidy said:

 

Yowsa! Dat funny!

[pope]

Dru said:

...maybe mattp can make another 15-paragraph long post and put everyone to sleep

 

Yup. That be some of my very favorite bed-side reading.

[mattp]

By the way - now that we have identified the visual impact as the real substantial impact of bolts in as far as they affect anybody other than the climber on the route in question, I'd put in a plug here for powder coated bolt hangers.

[AlpineK]

jkassidy said:

AlpineK said:

I'm not convinced of the argument that any joker is going to start drilling bolts.

 

You've gotta have the bucks for the cordless drill and bits and batteries and all that hardwear. Then you've gotta find a line to set, and take days off from climbing to do the route setting.

 

It seems that this activity is self limiting.

 

Yup. Gotta have the bucks, for the fancy power drill. And the hardware. But say, once you've demonstrated competence by acquiring these items (sarcasm, for the slower readers), then, and only then, by Gum, should you consider yourself a ROUTE PIONEER.

 

Kurt, you've accused me of demonstrating poor logic, given my mathematical training. But, you're also a mathematician. When we gonna get som' dat good logic out of you?

 

I think you missed the second part of what I said which was, "you have to take the time off from climbing to set the route."

 

Case in point a friend of a friend has spent most of the summer working up at Zeke's wall setting routes. We hiked up there one day and watched him spend hours trundling crap off the wall. Setting a new route is work, and it's a lot easier for most people to just go out and climb preexisting routes than to set new ones.

[mattp]

jkassidy said:

...maybe mattp can make another 15-paragraph long post and put everyone to sleep

 

Maybe I can actually take a few moments to put some ideas together rather than just spray the first stupid comment that comes to mind.

[Dru]

maybe while taking the time to put together that well-thought-out post you can look up Concise and Brevity in the dictionary too