perplexing

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

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Originally posted by chucK:

Anybody climbed Lingerie? That's rated 11d or something did not seem too bad (on toprope) if you just stemmed out to Sex Party the whole time.

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That is exactly the case. If you stem to Sex Party at all then you have not climbed Lingerie. And likewise, the crux is at the start and is very difficult to hang on and place pro well enough to keep yourself off the deck.

Lead Lingerie without stemming to the climb left of it and you will have no doubt that it is all of 5.11d.

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

That is exactly the case. If you stem to Sex Party at all then you have not climbed Lingerie. And likewise, the crux is at the start and is very difficult to hang on and place pro well enough to keep yourself off the deck.

Lead Lingerie without stemming to the climb left of it and you will have no doubt that it is all of 5.11d.

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No offense intended, but this sounds really contrived, like bouldering rules applied to a rock climb. I've never done the route and I'm sure it's a fine climb, but a grade should apply to the natural/easiest way to climb a given line. If you climb Givler's crack using only fist jams it's a bitch, and if you climb Karate Crack without the crack it's very difficult. We could put some big numbers on these routes if we attached contrived little restrictions on how they have to be climbed.

[Retrosaurus]

OK then. It's 5.10.

[chucK]

Pope's response got me thinking about the "contrived" issue. I guess I was getting at this when I sent out the post about Lingerie. I was pretty sure the book rating only made sense if you kept yourself from using holds that are easily reachable. In one sense this seems foreign to climbing on real rock, and more like climbing in a gym, hence my taped holds comment.

But...I got to thinking . Where do we draw the line? It seem obvious in some instances, like a problem at the UW rock with giant verboten hold that makes the problem much more difficult because you need to do some serious contortions to avoid touching it. What about the opposite side of the spectrum though? You [it]could[\it] say that every climb on Snow Creek Wall is "contrived" because you could much more easily walk up the back side. Is the Remorse start to Outer Space contrived because there's an easier way to get to Two Tree Ledge? Is Pony Keg at Vantage contrived if you resolve to not clip the bolts on Whipsaw? What makes something "contrived"? Does it matter? Not really, but it might be an interesting discussion.

What do you think?

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by chucK:

What do you think?

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well you really want to know what i think???? wow!!!!!

well i am an alpinist(and a fat one at that), so my objective is to obtain the summit in as effiecent and safe way possible....granted i try not to pull on gear.........but if there is a hold on the rock, i am using it......why not......???? i mean when was the last time you looked at anything and thought to yourself: "man, i will take the hardest way" granted to cragging is to practice your technique and to get strong, so if you have a problem with using "off" routes holds, then by all means don't.....but if you harp on me about it.....well i am from tacoma....

[Gordonb]

To answer the question you have to know what your goal for the climb is. If you are trying to get to the top of the face then anything goes. If your goal is to get up the pitch, then I would also have to say anything goes. If you are tying to climb sport route XXX that is a 5.11a, then you have to decide what makes up the route. If you have to mark a large number of obivious holds off route to make it tough then why are you climbing outside? You might as well be in the gym.

[Country_Jake]

I agree with erik on this one guys...

If your going to bitch about the "proper rout, and the proper tecnique" for the rout then you got your nose to far up in the air for the likes of me... Its not about using the hardest holds as much as it is doing the rout confidetly... If you have to use the easyer holds to make it to the top with confidence then more power to you... if you prefer to use the harder manuvers, then thats great too, just don't dogg me for the way I choose to climb a rout...

[ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: Country Jake ]

[Matt_Anderson]

new topic? I started one . . .

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001923

[ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: erik ]

[Zenolith]

waitaminute, why can erik edit matt a's post. is that a trick?

to the original post i say, i accel at everything below 5.5. i will spank any 5.5 face or crack with equal reckless abandon. once, i tried heinous cling on tr. i spanked the little crack, i spanked the little finger pockets, but the slapping dyno to the sloping little ledge? yes, it whipped me like that bad little boy that i am.

I made up this joke and haven't gotten enough praise for my cleverness yet:

what do bolts and condoms have incommon?

(they both protect a bunch of pricks.)

[Matt_Anderson]

Yeah, I wanted to know how he did that to . . .

[Country_Jake]

he obvously is one of the web goorus of this .com site.... he has acsess to all editing on the hole site... am I right?

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by Country Jake:

he obvously is one of the web goorus of this .com site.... he has acsess to all editing on the hole site... am I right?

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partially

the other half of it, is that i have some seriously rapid thoughts and much errant clicking.........

[Dru]

erik on crack you dont have to lift your legs as much so carhartts is OK. on face you must do gay fairy things like Egyptians and double-sukaharas that require much more leg flexibility so spandex work better than carhartts except when kneebarring off a tufa on a big roof. but roofs are a whole other subject than face climbing.