Sleep depravation

[Muhammad_Ali]

What experiences do you all have with 20, 30, 40 hour pushes? I am interested in leaving sleeping gear behind and staying on the move. What advice would you have to make the experience more fun that it sounds? Food? Gear? Emergency gear?

[cj001f]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muhammad Ali:

What experiences do you all have with 20, 30, 40 hour pushes? I am interested in leaving sleeping gear behind and staying on the move. What advice would you have to make the experience more fun that it sounds? Food? Gear? Emergency gear?

---

Uh - I don't mean to be rude, but I'm going to be, you don't have much experience with sleep deprivation anywhere do you? Get some experience first. Try not going to sleep on Friday evening - TR with a friend on Sat. Afternoon - repeat a couple of times. Than start adding in alot of running before the TRing. Then you might be Marc Twight.

From personal experience (not climbing) there's nothing particularly bad or uncomfortable about lack of sleep - and there's the added bonus that sleep feels like the best thing in the world, and you can sleep anywhere when your done. I'd probably never do a long push in the mountains because my(like most peoples) cognitive ability declines substantially after 24 hrs w/o sleep, and climbing isn't internalized enough for me to be safe. Which is what I'd worry about a hell of alot more than comfort - uh, did I tie in? Did I just drop the rope?

You set the planer boards real shallow.

Carl

[allison]

I've been awake for all of these lengths of time for my work, 20+ a bunch of times, and at about 20 I hit a wall, and then about 25 hours I think I'm genius, but it is a kind of delusional genius. In my work we have to make decisions about safety all of the time. Really bad idea. Don't go there.

[Wallstein]

I have quite a bit of experience with the single push method of climbing bigwalls in Yosemite. I have never done any alpine climbing this way but I am sure it is very similar. Probably the most important thing that will help you be sucessfull is the correct energy source. I am a huge fan of GU and Balance Bars. I stay away from Cliff Bars and PowerBars because after 24+ hours of only eating them my stomach gets upset. This doesn't happen with GU and BalanceBars. Attitude is also very important to be sucessfull and most importantly to have a good time. Many of my partners start to freak out around the 24 hour mark. It is all mental though, it has nothing to do with how they are climbing our how the ascent is going. These partners start thinking we are moving to slow and everything seems to get under their skin. I just don't let shit get to me, its that simple. If something goes wrong I just deal with it, don't bitch. and don't argue with my partner about it. Arguing when shit is going wrong and you have been up of 30 hours can really be demotivating. I try and understand why things are going wrong and if they are actually wrong or it just seems like everything just sucks. During pushes my goal isn't to sprint for 50 hours but to climb at the most efficent pace for my body and mind. If I move to fast my mind will get worn out before my block is finished and I will end up bonking during one of my pitches. Not to say this hasn't happened though. I have fallen asleep a couple of times on lead, my partners were asleep at the belay too, this is the fastest way to get nowhere. Muscle and general body endurance is also very important. I think somepeople's body just can't handle moving and being awake for 24+ hours. Practice staying awake on a friday night and then go climb Town Crier or even Liberty crack, or just go cragging all day. Don't eat any food you wouldn't have on an actuall push ascent to get your body use to surving on hollow calories. Don't just toprope shit if you were to go cragging, this won't help at all. The goal of this practice is to fatigue your brain not just your body. Or don't practice at all and just go send something, that is the best practice.

Chocolate covered espresso beans also help!

[max]

I'd agree with the two previous respondants. Intentionally missing that much sleep is not a good idea. I will say I value the experiences I've had of prolonged, intense physical work, but I also value having been snowbound with hypothermia victims on rainier. but that doesn't mean I'm going ot go back to rainier with the the idea of intentionally getting stuck and being in a seriously compromised position. Just because something is a valueable or memorable experience doesn't mean you should try to put yourself in that position. In my opinion, it's best just to wait and let these "situations" come about on their own. (Does this post show the signs of three nights of studying? It took about twice the usual time to compose!)

I like the idea of first going w/o sleep in a "controled" environment, then deciding whether or not it's something you want to do intentionally.

[Bug]

If you keep your blood sugar up -Gu is great- you will fare much better. If you get pulled over on the way home, resist the temptation to tell the officer, "It's OK. I've been doing Gu."

[Nelly]

Wallstein - nice post. Just curious - why are doing big single push climbs? Is that the style you enjoy or are there other contributing factors. Very impressive indeed!

[erik]

1st of all on your first extend sleep deprived trip i would say expect to fail....especially if you need to ask the risk/benefits.....

this type of single push mentality (like what wallstein is talking about) is a game...sure you can climb it in 4 days or hike it in 5 days....but how far can you really get??? it is a fun game, but adds a substantional risk while climbing or doing whatever....

the benefits for this are nil....it is completly self serving idea and if you are not ready for yourself to be out of your own control, then you are not ready....you must be in control at all times.....mental weakness will have the animals eating your corpse and your mother crying.....

you must control all aspects of the game...mike alludes to partner difficulty....this is probably the biggest issue as little things tend to become big things.....you need to stop that.....and reconize the each others weaknesses and strenghts and capitalize on both........and if you cannot work as a team then forget about it.......

i have just started dabbling in this arena and am quite excited about it.......i will report more as the seasons get nicer......

i am choosing this for personal acheivement and the fact that i am fat and lazy and just want to carry the extra gear....

[Dru]

basically there is nothing much in the cascades thats gonna take you more than 24 hrs to single push unless you are trying for fury from the road, then you are gonna suffer no matter what.

i have done 5 or so trips involving being on the go for mostly 24 hrs. redoubt was 21 hrs straight, silvertip was 16 one time and 24 another time. plinth was 24 hrs round trip from car. grainger was 22 hrs but that was just cause we were SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. clarke was 18 or 19 hrs.

on most of these trip you can always take a short break, like an hour or two, napping, while melting water or waiting for snow to harden up. they wake you up just enough to be more alert, even if you dont sleep but just doze.

knowing you are gonna be doing a push, is definitely more mental benefitthan not, if you expect to take 8 hrs and take 21 it seems really long and tiring, if youexpect 24 and go 21, its not that bad. just a matter of pacing yourself.

as for food and water, i find about 3 L of water or weak sport drink, some landjaegers, and a big bag of gummi bears, works just as well for me over 24 hrs. as does expensive energy bars and sporty goo, and its way cheaper.

and finally plan on doing the hardest climbing while fresh, taking a short nap break, then doing the descent. or approach, nap break, then climb.

even the twight crew took 1 hr breaks on slovak route aka czech direct, while melting water. also one person can sleep at the belay if a party of 3.

[Wallstein]

Nelly-

Haulbags are heavy and I am small...

There is actually a little more to it than that. There is just something about walking up to el cap with your bros, a rack, two ropes, a really small bag, and a shit load of GU and then just climbing....and climbing.... and climbing. I really enjoy testing my body and using it to its fullest capabilities. Climbing 3000ft without stopping has made me aware of what is possible. Next year I hope to go back to Patagonia and try and do something on Fitzroy or Cerro Torre in a push. Light and lucky. One day, once I grow up and mentally mature, I would also like to start alpine climbing and I believe climbing in this style is one of the safest methods possible. Objective dangers scare me a lot and the less time I am at risk due to these objective dangers the better.

[W]

I think one should be cautious about embracing "single push" tactics just for the sake of doing it in this style or that. What I mean is, the single push mentality I think is something that is appropriate only if one has naturally evolved into that style through both their own personal nuances and experiences, and of course depends on the types of routes one is attempting.

I don't know your experience or route preferences, so forgive me for making any false assumptions- all I'm saying is, if you aren't already on the cusp of this style, having mastered speed and efficiency while carrying bivi gear, I would be hesitant to recommend that you just set out with no gear on long routes and see what happens.

I've spent the past several years having some eye opening experiences, both from my own climbing, and from watching others up close and learning from them what is possible. But it's always been tempered by adapting it to our own strengths and level of comfort. My partner and I have gradually, year by year, been stripping away gear and focusing on minimalism- but it's our own brand of minimalism. Just because Marc Twight stayed awake for 60 hours doesn't mean that is what it takes to do routes efficiently, or safely.

I think lightweight, alpine style climbing is what matters, not strictly carrying no gear and not being able to stop until its over. This lightweight style should be suited to your own strengths and preferences based entirely on what you have learned about yourself on other routes. Steve House did many, many routes in Alaska before he did the Czech and the Infinite in his single push style. The route you choose may take 22 hours or 57, but what was written above is true- after 24 hours without sleep, performance heads downhill fast, and one has to really be alert to be safe. No matter what gear you have or speed you go, the ascent should be in control at all times. That is what matters, not whether you do it without sleeping.

On one route in Alaska, I made a 48 hour up-and-down ascent of a 4500 foot mixed rock climb- half of which time was spent sleeping. We carried only a sleeping bag and stove, no tent and no bivi. The ascent was fast and light, but we allowed ourselves some time to refuel and sleep, which made the hard climbing go fast and enjoyable- and in control despite marginal weather.

So my point is not "don't do single push", but rather, know yourself, and tailor the style to play to your strengths. While it depends on the length and difficulty of the route, I think less emphasis should be placed in approaching any route as a "single push" and more on "lightweight, alpine style"- which may equate to single push if it happens to be the right route for you.

In the end, what matters is carrying only what you absolutely need to make it safe, and to allow you to move freely and unencumbered by weight on technical ground. Don't be spellbound by the stopwatch. That part will take care of itself- if you take care of yourself.

btw, GU is great. But I always take a little solid food. After about 15-18 hours, GU alone ceases to cut it for me. After that much time, a brew stop is probably in order anyway.

[erik]

quote:

---

Originally posted by W:

btw, GU is great. But I always take a little solid food. After about 15-18 hours, GU alone ceases to cut it for me. After that much time, a brew stop is probably in order anyway.

---

yes a couple beers is required gear for any type of strenous activity.....

'w' usually a voice of reason!!!

[Nelly]

I don't think I have the guns to pull off big, single push climbs. As for personal style, I'm more in line with "W" I enjoy, going light and fast on big alpine routes, but don't have a desire to just go until it's done. I've pulled off some BIG days in Alaska and the Himalaya, but it was due to necessity, rather than style.

However, I envy those like Wallstein and others who can pull off the big single push climbs - go with your strengths and pursue a style that fulfills your own personal goals.

[Alasdair]

I never pulled all nighters in college like most of my freinds did. So when I finnaly did stay awake for an extended period of time it effected me quite significantly. I did a 30 hour push (with about an hour of rest at some point) a few years ago getting off of a mountain. Although I was strong physically I definatly had mental issues. Basically I had issues with the prossessing of sound. When partners would talk I would hear them but not be able to prossess the information until later. I would store up several sounds and then prossess them all at the same time. All the while I was fully aware that I was doing this but without the abitily to do anything about it. After getting back I read up a little on sleep deprivation and this experience seems to fit in exactly with what the papers said. Audio hallucination is one of the first things that happens. I dont remember any of the other symptoms. There was an artical in either Rock and Ice or Climbing a couple of years back on this topic that you should read. I dont recomend doing this unless you have no choice.

[W]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alasdair:

There was an artical in either Rock and Ice or Climbing a couple of years back on this topic that you should read. I dont recomend doing this unless you have no choice.

---

You don't recommend depriving yourself of sleep... or reading R+I and Climbing?

Seriously, though, I should distinguish that the type of climbing I was referring to and that which Wallstein was speaking of are a whole different ballgame. I think the style Wallstein is talking about is absolutely the way to go for the routes he likes and wants to do. The present, and future, of climbing in Patagonia, and safety there, is predicated on SPEED and EFFICIENCY. And once you've paid your big wall apprenticeship in the valley, I can't think of a better way to prepare yourself for Patagonian routes than to single push routes in Yosemite, and equally important, bring your technical climbing ability to its peak. Donini recommends avoiding aid in Patagonia at all costs (unless you're Slovenian ) Additionally, there is, as Wallstein speaks of, a great satisfaction in just going on and on for thousands of feet on rock with just your rack and your friends and no bs. But there's a price to pay- people ask how Potter and O'Neil are climbing so fast- well, for starters, they are incredibly strong free climbers. Second, and in conjunction with the first point, they are comfortable simulclimbing at high grades, and further, running it out BIG TIME. Additionally, hard-aid speed ascents are happening in the astounding times they are partially because those partaking in it are comfortable backcleaning 60 feet or more on A2 to A4, and while not speaking for everyone, elaborate testing of manky fixed pieces doesn't happen much from what I've seen and heard. You won't see this guy doing that, I tell you. There may be something in between that would allow me to move faster than I typically do, but I wouldn't feel safe doing things that way. Just my preference. What's safe for one person isn't necessarily safe for someone else. I just try to keep an open mind and make it a constant process of learning- improvement is then natural, not contrived.

[gregm]

we ended up doing north ridge of baker in one push to take advantage of weather. this after a full day at work, packing, driving, leaving trailhead 10 pm or something so i guess like a 36 hour day. i didn't get real tired till i'd been awake about 28 hours. wouldn't want to climb at my limit like that for sure. i definately got irritable and and got very pissed off when we kept punching through crevasses on the way out. also on the slog out my partners wanted to take a quick break every 30 minutes and i just wanted to get to the car, but i didn't know if this was just in my head and i would have crashed if we didn't stop every 30 minutes...

[freeclimb9]

I've done it a bunch with weekend new-route adventures, alpine climbs, and walls all in the name of fun. I personally need to close my eyes for a couple hours every day to let the static buzz dissipate --Not actually sleep, but simply relax. The bleakest hour is around 3:00AM. On alpine routes, I've learned to keep near my partner during that time of night because some people get batty and will do wierd shit. On a wall that's not a problem since you're tied together, but without the rope they might wander off in some bizarre direction which is a waste of time. For food I've done everything from getting outfitted at 7-eleven on the approach drive, to being ready before we leave town. I like a mix of stuff, but go heavier for savory flavored foods. At low-aerobic levels, your body burns a great deal of fat and some protein too; I like to have some fatty foods along for the ride like cheese and meat. The usefulness of chemical stimulants can't be underestimated. Time-release dexedrine spansules are bitchin, but if you stack them you can wierd-out your electrolytes and get muscle cramps. More illicit flavors of the sweet can be great too, but go easy on the amount and keep the firearms at home. I also found that it took a little time to get used to climbing with near-constant shakes after about 48 hours --like someone with Parkinson's. I got used to it; it didn't actually affect climbing-level too much, but was initially disconcerting.

[Dru]

yeah good point. hey cassius, i mean mohammered, wha kinda routes are you planning on pushing - snow and ice/mixed or mtneering traverses or hard rock free or aid??

[Jedi]

Good topic.

Good testing ground would be a long safe route with an easy descent. That way you could concentrate on how you and your partner are performing instead of dealing with objective dangers.

Needless to say, doing a long, hard push and then having a long difficult rapel would be a bad place to find one's limits.

It is interesting to see how people perform under stress when deprived of sleep.

Ever watched the Eco Challenge?

My only long push, I can remember being stressed when I should have been taking it in stride. That 42 hour day resulted in some fine sleep indeed.

As was posted above, the goal is to go lighter so you can enjoy the climbing. Not being weighted down with a pack that makes climbing more work than anything.

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Jedi ]

[cj001f]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wallstein:

Don't just toprope shit if you were to go cragging, this won't help at all. The goal of this practice is to fatigue your brain not just your body. Or don't practice at all and just go send something, that is the best practice.

Chocolate covered espresso beans also help!

---

My comment for TR'ing was menat in the sense - if you've never been w/o sleep before - start small. You should no pretty quickly if your good to go - and it ain't good to find this out in the middle of a pitch. If you know what your body does after awhile without sleep - just go climbing.

As for the caffeine - I find after about 30hrs it starts to put me to sleep. Even 4x espressos. I've not tried any of the "recreational" solutions.

Alasdair - I'm not sure if I'd call them hallucinations - but walking through the woods, with a crappy headlamp, tired, hungry, with a ways to go to the bivy - EVERYTHING you hear sound like it's out to get you. Makes you understand the fears of the forest in the middle ages.

Carl

[erik]

freeclimb9 recommending a controled substance like any of the 'phine' family is completly irresponsible....those drugs even they are legal are pure shit......they have no benefit to your system and actully work harder to hurt you then do good......

i do use gingsing and have found that in limited quanities works quite well.....ask timl...or juan or hollywood or wallstein....but that 'phone' shit is just that....it is also an antioxident.

those 'phone' drugs break down bone mass and create lots of cramping.......plus like you said the shaking effect is utterly bullshit....there is a reason they are the key compents to meth and other shit drugs.......

no on the 'phines'

[chucK]

What about the 'feines' Eric?

I've also experienced the coffee putting me to sleep phenomenon on overnight (driving) pushes. I think it's actually the warm liquid that puts you to sleep not the caffeine.

I think the way caffeine works is that it suppresses the clearance of adrenalin from your system. If you ain't got no more adrenalin, the coffee isn't going to do the job. On an overnight drive, you're doing nothing but following the hypnotic dashed lines, so there's nothing to get any adrenalin released even if you had any more [well maybe if you fall asleep at the wheel, that usually gets some adrenalin going , if you wake up that is]. Trudging along on all-night forced march might be different.

Bronco recommends taking a thermos of coffee with you on all-night pushes though.

[Country_Jake]

The only experiance I have with no sleep and mountainering is a three day no sleep trip through the Willowas in ne oregon... And I do mean trip... the only way I could have made it was the help from my good friend Qubinzie... I saw wildlife that probably wasn't there, sat in a homemade sweatlodge for half of one day, and conquered three peaks, though I can't recall if it really happened or not.

[MysticNacho]

I've heard that the time the most auto accidents occur is between midnight and 2am, and 1pm and 3pm. I guess the afternoon time has something to do with blood sugar after lunch. I've been doing a lot of all night driving lately, and it seems true. From midnight to two I am dead tired, but after that I feel a lot better and am able to push on for hours and hours and hours more. Illusion or not, it gets me to wherever I'm going.

[freeclimb9]

quote:

---

Originally posted by erik:

freeclimb9 recommending a controled substance like any of the 'phine' family is completly irresponsible....those drugs even they are legal are pure shit......they have no benefit to your system and actully work harder to hurt you then do good......

---

Totally irresponsible. Guess what the boys on the big peaks use to get back from the middle of the ocean? At a slide show in AZ a few years back, Ed Viesturs admitted that they are used. Probably in emergencies. I'm not advocating recreational use. But a pick-me-up in the medical kit is not a bad way to go. There's a reason that stimulants are banned by the IOC; it's because they enhance athletic performance and sharpen mental acuity (at the expense of working over your kidneys).

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: freeclimb9 ]