A serious question from me

[allthumbs]

I'm sick of wearing contacts. Have any of you bums done the lazer surgery thing? I'm strongly considering it, but would like to hear from anyone that's had it done. I don't climb on anything but the neighbor girl so I'm not worried about high altitude affects.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: trask ]

[JRCO]

I have not done it. I have had friends do it with excellent results but they were not climbers. I would defineltly look into how altitude effects the eyes after the surgery is done if you plan on going high in the future.

[chris_w]

Also any problems with Altitude 14,000+. I know lazer is totaly different then the old method that Bech Weathers had on everest in '96.

I am thinking about it also, but haven't committed. Maybe when I get back next week from a week in the desert with all the sand in the eye's, I'll be more committed.

[JRCO]

I also think there is an issue with being far sited in the future. I currently have prescription glasses and sun glasses. Both are a pain in the ass when climbing, skiing or mt. biking. I was thinking about contacts but those also can be a pain but they give you more options for switching eye protetion. It seems that laser eye surgery is the way to go but make sure they only do one eye at a time so that if they mess up you won't be blind for life.

[JRCO]

Also would be like to see posts from Cascade Climbers who have had this done. Any problems? How about the actual surgery. How long were you out of commission?

[dr._jay]

i had it done a couple years ago and its been great--no complaints whatsoever. the key really is the shape of your eyes and why your vision is bad. i was pretty near sighted but without astigmatism, so when they mapped my eye i was told it was a good shape and had a very high predictability of success. astigmatism or other irregularities make it a little less predictable with more chance of complications, but everyone is different. you will always hear about the horror stories out there but just be sure you get a good doctor that has done alot of procedures with a high rate of success. if you want a name or have any other questions just let me know. good luck,

Jay

[dr._jay]

the actual procedure took no time at all, in fact they were finished by the time the pills they gave me to calm me down and kill the pain really kicked in, but it made for a pretty fun ride home. i spent the rest of the day with a pretty wierd buzz on but couldn't really see anything and it felt like someone poured sand in my eyes. but by the next day i drove myself to my 24 hour follow-up appt. and was back at work the following day. my eyes felt pretty dry for awhile like i slept in my contacts without any eye drops, but it got better quickly and now i don't have any issues.

[JRCO]

dr. Jay, How did your vision turn out. Any need for glasses while reading. Also is the fix permanent or will you need to possibly have another procedure in the future.

[Rodchester]

I simply use glacier glases that are prescription. You wear glacier glasses when the sun is up, so just make them prescription glasses. Sun is down, wear your regular glasses. Most everyone I mountaineer with that has glasses does it this way.

Contacts suck for mountaineering. They dry out, they bother my eyes, they are a pain in the ass to keep clean up there, the extended wear just don't stay clear.

I do wear contacts when I climb water ice or sometimes at the crags.

I just have too many concerns over the whole eye surgery thing. Fact is we just don't know enough about how the surgery effects the eye at altitude. Sure it has changed quite a bit since Beck weathers had hid problem on Everest, but has the new methods reallt been tested?

So, if you are serious about altitude, I mean over 20,000, then I would be concerned.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

[Travis]

Yeah, contacts/glasses suck.

I had my eyes done using the Lasik technique about three years ago, and within 4 months of the surgery travelled to Kenya and up to nearly 5000 meters ASL on Mt Kenya with no ill effects. I asked about the altitude thing at the time and the doctors convinced me it was a non-issue with my prescription and the method they were using. (they just didn't need to take that much of my lense to make it work)

If your prescription is stable, and not super strong, I think it's well worth the risk. (very low risk these days.)

In Lasik, the skill of the surgeon has more of an impact, since they need to peel back the flap they create by hand. You don't want that detaching on you and if it does they'll claim the only thing you can do is a cornea transplant. Truth is, if the surgeon is good, he might be able to fix it on the spot. I requested a specific guy that I'd heard of as being one of the best (he was in Vancouver BC then, probably still is)

My eyes now are 20/20 but they were slightly better with corrective lenses before. I haven't noticed any night vision issues.

Recovery time was trivial, I did it Friday afternoon, and was back to work by Monday morning. A few weeks for the pain to go away completely, and vision to stabalize; but it was instantly better.

You can send me questions directly, or post them back here if you want.

[dr._jay]

my vision came out as good as it was with contacts, and so far i'm still a few years away from reading glasses. according to the eyes docs they say you will probably need reading glasses a few years earlier than before the surgery, but the distance vision will be unchanged. i hear the fix is permanent but it is new enough that long term effects and studies are not well known at this point. but the years i'm having right now not worrying about galsses or contacts are pretty damn nice, and i haven't been above 14,000 feet so i can't say much about altitude effects.

and by the way, as i was driving through conifer last week i could see very clearly--i love it out there.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: dr. jay ]

[genepires]

While up on denali last year I ran across a fellow in another group who was having problems with his eyes at 14K camp. He had the eye surgery and the altitiude or stress or whatever was messing with his vision. He was one small step from walking around totally blind. Luckily he was on one of the most crowded places in alaska so he had lots of help. If he would have been in a more remote route, they whole group would have been screwed. There are altitude concerns with laser surgery, irregardless of what some doctor say. Some people have gone blind from the operation as well. The inconvience of glasses is nothing compared to even the remote chance of blindness or requiring a rescue from the mountains.

[Freeman]

I had Lasik last June and it is the single best move I have ever made. I was 20/200-250 with modertate astigmatism and was into a reading correction (bifocal). I could not tolerate contacts and my optometrist recommended against PKR. I will never forget walking to the window on the 16th floor of the office building in Seattle where I had my surgery done and for the first time in my life seeing the skyline without glasses. It very literally brought tears to my eyes.

My vision after 6 months is 20/20 in one eye, 20/15 in the other. I now require reading glasses for any close work but the only real hassle is taking them off and on. Right after my surgery I went out and spent a bunch of money on really cool new sun glasses - something that I could never have done before - glacier glasses, wrap around shades, some yellow lenses for overcast conditions, new ski goggles...

I am slightly more sensitive to bright lights at night and sometimes get the starburst and halo effects described in the literature but it isn't bad unless I'm really tired. I have been told that the high altitude (Beck Weathers) problems are only associated with PKR although you should discuss this in detail with your optometrist. I have had no problems with either climbing at 14,000 or flying in unpressurized light aircraft.

I was told, and firmly believe, that the sucess of this proceedure depends as much on the skill of the doctor (really the programmer, since its all done by a computer). My cornea flap incision has absolutely no scarring (the optometrist says he can barely see it). If you choose to do this, try to find someone who has done a lot of them - this in no place to save money. I had mine done at Pacific Laser in Bellevue by Dr. Ford - I recommend him highly. My wife and I stayed in Seattle that evening and she drove home the next day - but I could have. I was at work the following day and have had no complications at all.

For someone who has worn glasses since he was 5 years old to suddenly be free of them really is a minor miracle.

btw - Trask, speaking of the neighbor girl - she will no longer be just a fuzzy pink blur

[Jman]

I know several people that have had it done and they're all very pleased with the results. I think they used the same doctor in Vancouver, BC.

My brother had it done a couple years ago and a climbing partner of mine, too. So far no one has had any problems or any regrets, on the contrary they recommend it very much. I would have it done too if I could only afford it (several thousand $$$). But so far, hard lenses have served me fine - no problems with dryness (my eyes are very insensitive), occassional irritation from grit (but that's normal), and cleaning is only a minor hassle. What bothers me most is having to carry the solution - weight is my ultimate enemy!

[JRCO]

While living in Olympia, I heard on numerous people going to Vancouver, BC for the operation. I heard it is a lot less expensive. Any one know the name of the doctor.

[gapertimmy]

dr jay-my roomate had the surgery done and complained about his night vision. He said the "halo's" around car headlights we're pretty bad... is this temporary, or does this trippy effect continue?

My night vision right now is pretty bad and am afraid if I had the surgery done it would only get worse.

I'm considering prescription sunglasses, but I usually just suck it up with my contacts and leave them in overnight when i'm on an epic.

TIMM@Y

[allthumbs]

Thanks for the answers. I'll talk to a good doctor and consider it seriously. It would be nice to wake up Sunday morning and see how mangy the coyote next to me really is.

[Travis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JRCO:

While living in Olympia, I heard on numerous people going to Vancouver, BC for the operation. I heard it is a lot less expensive. Any one know the name of the doctor.

---

I had mine done at 'The Laser Center', it's since been acquired I think, but the office still operates under another name. In any event, the Doctor's name was Simon Holland.

The price is somehow based on how strong the prescription is, so my price was about $1000 Cdn for one eye and another $2000 Cdn for the other. Your mileage may vary, that was three or four years ago now.

[dkemp]

oh man, I just have to chime in here. I started eyeglasses when I was eight years old. My eyes were bad, man, including astigmatism. I could never get the hang of contacts - I beat the crap outa my eyes gettin' them in there. of course I suffered with eyeglasses/prescription glacier glasses in the outdoors of the PNW.

Had the surgery three years ago. Goddam, I'd buy the company and put my name on it if I could. Its truly a liberation. Can you tell I like it? I'm 20/20 in both eyes - no complaints at all. I've been to 17k twice - no problems. Hiked out several trails in the dark - no problems. Basically no problems whatsoever.

If I had it to do again - knowing what I know now - I would go running back, thrusting my cash at those people, pleading with them to rip open my eyeballs and fry 'em with their ray gun.-Dox

[dr._jay]

the halos and difficulty with night vision are usually temporary but that is a relative term that varies from person to person. i had halos for several months but it was never too annoying for me. some people unfortunately aren't so lucky and some never have any difficulites at all so making general statements really doesn't mean much if you're someone who's badly affected, but in general things should get better with time.

[David_Parker]

Why can I lead WI5 with relatively no fear, but am so afraid of the surgery? I haven't been able to make the move. I just figure if I wait a few years, the procedures will be more reliable at a higher percentage. I'd hate to be the one in a hundred botched case! Does anyone know the percentage really of success to botched? I suppose it's no worse than flying in an airplane!

[russ]

I had lasik surgery 3-4 years ago, and for the most part of have been very please with the results. However, rockclimbing has been the one activity where it's had a negative effect for me.

Lasik surgery can't do anything about presbyopia -which is loss of elasticity of the lens effecting the ability to focus clearly. Unfortunely, people experience it as we get older - well, I guess I'm there.

Within a few days of surgery my vision was 20/20 in both eyes, but I required reading glasses unless the light was really bright. I immediately noticed in the climbing gym I couldn't see the holds or surface variations as well, but it was not big deal to adapt. Climbing outside on cracks or routes with med.-big holds was no problem (I mean seeing them, whether I could do the route is different issue!). But routes that you have to look for little irregularities has been problem - I've had a lot harder time finding the little smear edges for my feet and sometimes locating small finger holds.

The real problem is friction slabs where you have to see the slightest irregularity to make the move. The first time I noticed it was on Goat Dome in Icicle Canyon. We started by warming up on a route which I had done before without the slightest problem. I took off on lead and suddenly I couldn't find any features to get me past a section - I couldn't figure out what the problem was - how had I done this is the past??? It took me a couple of pitches to figure out I just couldn't see the little irregularities needed to smear off of. We had gone up with the intention of doing pretty much all the routes left - right on the cliff (which I had done previously). No way - I couldn't even get off the ground on the harder ones - I was bummed.

I talked to my optomitrist and he had no experience with someone wanting glasses with a working range of about 18" - 5'. He's was going to try having some made, but I've gotten sidetracked with focusing on alpine route and haven't gotten back to him. Got to do that....

Those scary, runnout friction routes (Static Point, Squamish apron, etc) use to be a "favorite" of mine - now I don't even consider them.

Otherwise, total positive experience with lasik.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: russ ]

[Siesta]

I do know someone who had a bad outcome to surgery to correct her vision, though I can't remember whether it was radial k. or lasic. She learned after the fact that her cornea was too thin and the surgery was inappropriate. She can't see worth a damn, can't work, can't drive, and will be disabled for the rest of her life. It isn't reversable. Her sister had the same experience. She's an acquaintance, I'm afraid I don't have any more details.

It seems critically important to gather lots of information regarding your individual eye, rather than relying on statistical odds.

[David Yount]

I have two friends that went to Vancouver, BC together and both got LASIK. They each had both eyes done at the same time. A year later they are overwhelmingly enthusiastic and encouraging, no significant side effects. ...they don't climb.

It's seems wise to have one eye done and then wait 2 weeks minimum before correcting the second eye. This is common, but many patients insist on having both eyes done at the same time to decrease inconvenience. In rare cases there are enhancement procedures to fine tune and stabilize the initial surgery.

First year of procedure and current success statisticsUSA 1978 RK - 85% 20/40 from myopia -1.00 to -6.50 diopters (radial keratotomy)USA 1985 PRK - 90%+ 20/40 from myopia -1.00 to -6.00 diopters and 70% 20/20 (photorefractive keratectomy)USA 1991 LASIK - 90%+ 20/40 from myopia -1.00 to -6.00 diopters and 75% 20/20 (laser in situ keratomileusis)USA 1995 Intacs ICR - 97% 20/40 from myopia -1.00 to -2.75 diopters and 74% 20/20 and 53% 20/16 (intracorneal rings)2000 SRP no data found (Surgical Reverslal of Presbyopia - inability to focus within arm's reach)

Cool thing about Intacs is that the central cornea is not altered and the tiny bands that subtly reshape the central cornea are fully removable. If you try this and the results aren't to your satisfaction they can be removed and replaced. And as you age your prescription may change, no prob, just remove and exchange. Or they can be removed and you can go back to glasses or contacts or try LASIK or PRK or RK or whatever's new on the scene.

If one surgical procedure does not work out as well as planned, it seems to me that within 3 to 5 years and certainly within 15 years a new procedure will be developed that can be applied to the former surgery. I am sure that to those rare individuals where Radial Keratotomy or Photorefreactive Keratotomy or LASIK did not result in adequate outcome the newest procedure may reasonably fix it; or the procedure that will be developed 5 years from now. With surgical procedures it seems no sub-adequate result need be accepted as permanent.

Many girls previously enhanced are getting updated breast surgery with fantastic results!

[David Yount]

I've 20/300 near sightedness and usually use contacts but prefer glasses sometimes. For backpacking I use only contacts with a 1oz container of multi-solution (since multi-solution and saline rarely come in bottles less than 4oz I bought 1oz and a 2oz bottles of cleaning solution, dumped the contents and use the bottles). I bring a storage case and I also take a new pair of backup lenses.

For alpine climbing longer than 30 hours I still bring the 1oz bottle (rewetting, eye-emergencies, etc) but I don't bring a storage case. I bring a new set of contacts, disposing of the original pair on the second day. Costco beats everybody (1-800-contacts, contactsforless.com, whatever) and several makes and models cost just over $1 per contact and you buy them in boxes of 6, unlike many mail-order requirements of quantity 50 or greater….