Harmless Party Animals?

[Ursa_Eagle]

I'm in on that, when we gettin' together?

[rbw1966]

I got the beer.

[bunglehead]

Okay, this should be a new thread.

Seriously that would be AWESOME.

I'll bring the whiskey.

 

 

[chelle]

Dru said:

although both examples carry fatal risks - which is why i chose them - the risk of dying from soloing is by and large a calculated risk. you know your own abilities - you know the route - you know your chances.

 

as far as i can tell you can't calculate a risk the same way when dealing with wild animals.

 

Dru - as far as I know Tim Treasdale studied the same group of grizzlies in the same few areas each season. He was studying them over the longterm. He knew most of the bears and some of them knew him and were used to his presence. If you get a chance to check out any of his video programs on the subject I think you might be impressed with what he was trying to do.

 

The uncertainty of how a wild animal might behave adds complexity to the risk assessment, but I think you are splitting hairs on whether he could understand his risks as well as a climber dealing with the risks of soloing on a long hard exposed route.

 

I still think it is unfortunate that people and bears died, and sad that some people think he was dumb and deserved it. But I guess that is what makes the world a diverse place, huh?

[cracked]

Michelle, I'd compare this bear case to the yogi who thought that his powers could keep him from getting killed. He tested his theory by jumping in front of a (moving) train. The train won. The bear guy struck me as cocky, saying that the bears are harmless. If he actually believed this, then he was not effectively assessing the risk. If this is correct, he was simply being stupid. Yes, it sucks that he was killed...but he could easily have prevented it. It's simply natural selection.

[cracked]

I wouldn't say he deserved being killed, I'm saying that it shouldn't have happened. It's his fault. I'd feel sorry for a hiker who is unfamiliar with the area who gets killed. Very different scenario.

[Bug]

ryland_moore said:

How did pepper spray work for you if you have never been charged? I have been charged.

 

Bug, if a bear really wants to get you, it will. Pepper spary has been shown to bea deterent and in other cases, just does not work. In my situation, we were in Yellowstone in a BC camp along Shoshone Lake. We had sea kayaked up from Lewis Lake, through the Lweis-Shoshone channel and paddled to our campsite. I had been fishing for Mackinaw all day and we cooked some up. All our gear was hung in a bear bag and we were getting ready to hang another with our clothes that we had cooked the fish in in another bear bag. That is one the young male bear came into the camp. It was me and my girlfriend. He walked around the perimeter of our camp for about 10 minutes. We were down by the lake's edge. He came to wear we had cooked, about 50 yds. from our tent. We were going to get in our sea kayaks and paddle out. As he got closer, maybe 15 yds., I sprayed him with pepper spray. He didn't do anything at first, but the wind, which was at our backs took it right into his face. He snorted and pawed at his face, then took off rather quickly.

 

If you really want to know how to deal with bears in the backcountry, go to this link and click on the TV to download make sure your volume is on so you can hear the commentary. I am sure some of you have seen this one before! Funny Aussies!

Good story! I like the video too. My teenager was rolling on the floor. I think he's going to try it. I told him to take pepper spray.

[Bug]

Oh yeah. One more story. Debbie and I were a few miles up the upper Yos canyon laying on top of a rock that was about four feet high. I was on my side facing her and she was on hers facing me. All of a sudden her eyes grew huge and she pointed behind me. I turned around and was face to face with a nice big black bear. I yelled at him and he backed off a little then started walking around the rock and toward my pack. I jumped down between him and the pack and immediately felt real stupid. But he backed off. Then he went up to my tent and stuck his head in to see what he could find. There was nothing in it so he wandered off into the woods. We moved to a campsite that had a cable to hang food on but the cable was pulled down from one side. I had to climb up on rotten stobs to get to the pulley and string the cable through. We hung our food and watched yogi and BooBoo try to get it all night long.

[Dan_Harris]

This guy crashed our party in Oregon a few years back.

[Alpinfox]

 

Looks pretty hefty fer a blackie. Where'd you see'm?

 

[Dan_Harris]

Alpinfox said:

 

Looks pretty hefty fer a blackie. Where'd you see'm?

He was at Paulina Lake. The one I saw in August near Lake Tahoe was just as big, but jet black. He was ripping the crap out of an old log.

[nolanr]

Gotta say a few things. I know maulings in Glacier NP are not rare, they probably average 1-2 incidents if not deaths per year. Kinda like people getting killed on Rainier. It happens. How many people visit Glacier each year? Thousands and thousands. Far fewer get into the back country, but still plenty of users. To act as if going into the Glacier backcountry w/out a gun is the same as having a death wish just doesn't seem to be statistically correct. And honestly my opinion is if you feel totally unsafe going into a national park or maybe even a wilderness area w/out packing heat because of potential encounters w/ wildlife, maybe you should find other places to visit. Is the purpose of a park to give you a safe place to play around in, or is it somewhere set aside for habitat for wildlife? We're the visitors, not them. Also the guy that was mauled in Katmai, if he's been doing this for 15 years it would seem that the theories he had formulated might have some relevance. If he was an idiot I don't think he would have survived that long among the bears. I look at it as being similar to climbing, if you do it for long enough the odds of being involved in a bad accident increase significantly. Nothing in climbing may be as unpredictable as a bear but there are plenty of variables that you don't control. To pretend otherwise is foolhardy. Okay, got a bit more than $.02 in there but I'm done now.

[Bug]

nolanr said:

Gotta say a few things. I know maulings in Glacier NP are not rare, they probably average 1-2 incidents if not deaths per year. Kinda like people getting killed on Rainier. It happens. How many people visit Glacier each year? Thousands and thousands. Far fewer get into the back country, but still plenty of users. To act as if going into the Glacier backcountry w/out a gun is the same as having a death wish just doesn't seem to be statistically correct.

Did someone say that?

And honestly my opinion is if you feel totally unsafe going into a national park or maybe even a wilderness area w/out packing heat because of potential encounters w/ wildlife, maybe you should find other places to visit. Is the purpose of a park to give you a safe place to play around in, or is it somewhere set aside for habitat for wildlife? We're the visitors, not them. Also the guy that was mauled in Katmai, if he's been doing this for 15 years it would seem that the theories he had formulated might have some relevance. If he was an idiot I don't think he would have survived that long among the bears. I look at it as being similar to climbing, if you do it for long enough the odds of being involved in a bad accident increase significantly. Nothing in climbing may be as unpredictable as a bear but there are plenty of variables that you don't control. To pretend otherwise is foolhardy. Okay, got a bit more than $.02 in there but I'm done now.

That's 4 and 1/2 cents. I agree that I just shouldn't go there (Glacier Park). I've been there enough. I'm OK with thatand haven't been there for years. One thing that seems to be missed tho by most of the anti gun posters here is that carrying a gun is not synonymous with shooting randomly at anything that moves. Carrying a gun and using it at maulee's disgression is a personal decision. Pepper spray works most of the time. Being careful works most of the time. Carrying a gun and using the bullets parsimoniously gives you an edge. It's not a cure-all or guarunteed to save your life. But my life is worth saving. Gun, rock, hand-grenade - I don't care about ethics. I want to live longer than the bear that might kill me. If you would rather die than give yourself an extra edge over Darwinian destiny, I will say nice things about you at your funeral - and still carry my creep stopper.

[Dru]

in the BC central coast my company's clients paid for local guys frm the reserve to stand around with guns, so i could pick up rocks with both hands and spend more time looking at big walls and less time looking at rustling things in the berry bushes.

[Scott_J]

j_b said:

most maulings can be related to disturbed/sick animals; yet, these days i carry a gun when in grizz territory. i never had to shoot at one but it helps me sleep better. although, for protection a dog is best.

 

I had to reply to this shit. A DOG IS BEST FOR PROTECTION. I can tell you are not a man of nature dude. Dogs attract bears like fucking honey and fish rot. If ya want to have bear trouble take a dog with and you'll have all the problems you can handle. Dogs are viewed as a threat. They emit scent. Bears relate to that scent. We emit scent too, but for the most part our scent tells Mr. and Mrs. Bear to leave the scene.

Bear mace was the other fallacy. Alaska Fish and Wildlife and Alaska Fish and Game have used it with moderate success. It works the first time you hit the bear with it. Once the effects of the mace wears off the bear is attracted to the mace kind of like a after dinner flavor. Both departments have film footage of bears(Griz)rolling in the mace site to add it to their fur and licking the site for some pepper to liven up the next course.

Best advice is respect the bears, wash your hair frequently of possible. Don't cook hot meals in bear country only make hot drinks and eat cold meals that are prepared ahead of time and vacuum sealed to assure freshness.

I have an Alaskan buddy that does a 5 day fly in float fishing trip every two years on a stream that is fraught with griz and I be speaking of coastal griz. His follows said rules and so far has only had problems with the bears waiting for him and others to hook up so they can steal an easy salmon or steelhead off the line. Ed told me that he will not use Climax leaders any longer because they are too hard to break off when a bear decides to latch on to a fish that is attached to your fly.

Believe it or not. If not follow your own set of slanted rules and get fucked up by a bear. I've seen the after effects of a griz mauling. It is not pretty. The guy that was mauled lived but it has affected his life greatly. Both mentally and physically

[PLC]

"If ya want to have bear trouble take a dog with and you'll have all the problems you can handle."

 

Have you ever heard of the Karelian Bear Dog? They're being used in Glacier and have been proposed in Alaska .

 

There are also several other breeds which will quite easily deter a bear - siberian huskies, black and tan coonhounds, airedales, etc.

 

Dogs do not "attract" bears. Dog food might attract bears, and an unleashed dog may lead a bear back to the dog owner, but a bear will certainly not go out of its way to get into a conflict with a dog.

 

When I was in Alaska, I spoke with a couple sled dog breeders and they both told me that moose come from miles around to give birth near their kennels, because they know that the sled dogs scare away the bears.

 

I've seen video of a 75 pound husky chasing off a 1000 pound polar bear. Dogs have been used to track, kill, guard, and deter big predators for thousands of years. Certainly, you shouldn't expect a westie to chase off a grizzly, but if you go hiking with a field-worthy breed you are not going to be attacked.

[Bug]

I was with a friend and his young black lab one fine fall day. The dog took off after a scent and could not be deterred. He came back with blackie in hot persuit. We climbed trees but the bear split as soon as he saw us. Could have just yanked us out of the trees if had wanted to. Nice dog. I suggested having him stuffed.