Sphinx Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 gov't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 j_b said: incubus said: j_b said: incubus (i.e.trask) said:The evidence he needs is littered throughout the web. You know it, and so does everyone else. It's been presented copiously for about two years now off and on.  anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. especially when presented by sensationalistic media and conservative gun totters in need of being reassured because they have an irrational fear of death (or fear of everything different). nothing short of statistics will do. here ya go press  i am afraid this is not a fishing expedition (or at least i am not doing the fishing). you'll have to find the statistics supporting "being attacked by black kids on the streets of Seattle (plenty of those around)". until you do so convincingly (since you appear to take up greg's gig), i'll consider it as irrational fear mongering. Go for a nice little walky poo in the Central District this Saturday night about midnight. I'll provide a statistic the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Bug...that is weak...of course if you deliberately insert yourself into a sketchy situation, come prepared... Â IE, don't head up an rp seam w/ gold camalots... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incubus Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 cruise the central district wearing a gold Rolex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I think you folks may be overestimating the danger of the Central District. Yes, if you walk past one or two corners in the area you may be asking for trouble, but the prior point about how this is Seattle we are talking about still applies. If you want to flirt with danger, try your midnight walk in certain parts of Detroit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 mattp said: I think you folks may be overestimating the danger of the Central District. Yes, if you walk past one or two corners in the area you may be asking for trouble, but the prior point about how this is Seattle we are talking about still applies. If you want to flirt with danger, try your midnight walk in certain parts of Detroit. Just watch 8 mile! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 In a related vein, I'd point out that I think gregw is not thinking clearly if he was suggesting that the guy who was killed during the Mardis Gras "riot" would have been well-advised to protect himself with a gun. I would guess that, had he pulled out a gun to protect himself, he might well have been shot by the police. The same fate might have befallen any shopkeeper who stood in front of his storefront and started firing on vandals during WTO (I can't think of any other defensive use that one might have made of their handgun during WTO, unless perhaps it would have been firing back at the police after being pelted with rubber bullets or struck with a billyclub, so I guess this is what he was thinking of). Â Speculation and reference to various remote scenarios may well be useful in a discussion like this one but I'm not sure these "examples" are proving their intended points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Yah, actually I was going to say something about this yesterday. I spent quite a bit of time downtown during WTO, and you really had to be looking for trouble to get in any. And during those four days a gun would have probably gotten you into more trouble than it could have potentially prevented. I think Greg's argument is weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Certainly GregW can speak for himself, but I think by bringing up Mardi Gras he was simply challenging the notion that Seattle's such a safe place, not necessarily advocating bringing a gun to Mardi Gras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Yes, veggie, I am sure he CAN speak for himself and he probably will. But the notion that Seattle is not such a safe place was brought up in support for his argument that he needs a gun to protect himself in this rough and dirty city of ours. Â We've talked about the home invasion thing before, and probably will argue about it some more, but we've also been talking about why someone might need to carry their gun around outside of their home. Â I'd make a similar argument about walking around in the Central District though it is not quite so clear, perhaps, that the gun might not be useful for protection in that situation as when we talk about WTO or MardisGras. But if you went to one of those dangerous corners at midnight on a saturday and pulled out a gun after being approached or accosted by some hoodlum, I bet your chances of survival just dropped considerably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incubus Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 mattp said: But if you went to one of those dangerous corners at midnight on a saturday and pulled out a gun after being approached or accosted by some hoodlum, I bet your chances of survival just dropped considerably. Matt, smart CCW carry dictates avoiding "risky" areas at all costs. One must be even less aggressive and confrontational when packing. The weapon is a last-ditch tool to save a life. If you come up to me and start a fist fight, even if I'm losing, I cannot legally pull my gun and shoot you. But if you're beating on me and I'm retreating, trying to get away at all costs, and you're obviously so incensed you're going to kill me, then I may be justified in defending myself with my gun. I would shoot only to put you down and stop the threat...not to kill you. I would expect my life to change drastically both emotionally and financially at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Contrary to what many might think, when you are carrying a gun you are not going around looking for trouble - quite the opposite I think. Your example of an encounter on the street corner with one or two people is very different from a drunken mob and would argue you could very well stack the odds in your favor in that situation. Of course one shouldn't draw on a drawn gun so don't go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 OK, Veg, you want to argue this, argue it. Â Tell me how a gun would have helped me to get around and be safer during the WTO Ministerials. What exactly would it have protected me against? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lI1|1! Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 vegetablebelay said: Certainly GregW can speak for himself, but I think by bringing up Mardi Gras he was simply challenging the notion that Seattle's such a safe place, not necessarily advocating bringing a gun to Mardi Gras. Â so the whole scenero now works against the utility of a gun for self defense, which was i think the anti-gun argument to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Rig a claymore to your chest, nobody will fuck with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Are you even reading what I'm writing? I'm not advocating opening fire in a drunken Mardi Gras riot or WTO shenanigans. I'm smart enough to not be at either one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Sphinx said: Rig a claymore to your chest, nobody will fuck with you. Â waist level that way we can stop the breeding of the whole lot! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incubus Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 A handgun is primarily a defensive arm. At that it's a poor substitute for a true stopping machine such as a rifle. The velocity from the average pistol just isn't there. Â Marylou, your argument is weak and just for argument's sake. Give it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 No I'm reading it just fine. Why would a person bring a gun to downtown Seattle during the WTO? Â I *had* to be in there and I wasn't protesting. What's the gun going to protect me against? Rioters attacking a random credentialed person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 marylou said: No I'm reading it just fine. Why would a person bring a gun to downtown Seattle during the WTO? Â I *had* to be in there and I wasn't protesting. What's the gun going to protect me against? Rioters attacking a random credentialed person? Â I don't know anyone who brought a gun to WTO, if you do, ask them. Can we drop the riot situations now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 except veggie greg used both of those as an example for the use and need of a gun in a self defense situation. Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incubus Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Concealed-carry reform reaffirms the basic idea that citizens have the right to defend themselves against criminal attack. Criminals can strike almost anywhere at any time. Carrying a handgun in public may not be for everyone, but it is a right that most state governments (41 now I believe) have given us. God helps those that help themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 He used them as a counter to a few suggestions that Seattle is so safe you could leave your front door unlocked at night and the motor running while you head into the store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 WTO or MardisGras or the danger of wandering around in the Cenrtral District on Saturday night would be examples of why I should't leave my door unlocked at night or leave my car running in front of the store? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 There are bad apples in every bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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