Alex_Mineev Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Hi, I've never seen such cheap ice screws before. What's wrong with them? Has anybody tried? http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47591401&parent_category_rn=4500716 Quote
Sphinx Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 They can't be as strong as 'real' screws, REI says to tilt them uphill. Use as a leaver screw only, IMO. Quote
slothrop Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Well, if you read the description that REI gives, you'll note that they're prone to pulling out (!) and "not intended for leading". So if you only plan on retreating from ice climbs you can't build a V-thread on, then buy a dozen. Or maybe they'd be good for running belays on low-angle late-season snow slogs. Either way, they don't seem versatile. Quote
Dru Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 i have 3 or 4... they are good for glacier travel and such like. won't hold a big leader fall on vertical WI but will hold someone jugging out of a crevasse, or rapping off from a spot where you can't get a V thread in like slothrop said. main advantage is they are super light so you dont mind lugging them into the alpine just on the off chance you need them. comprende? Quote
Dru Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 IRBIS all da way. with the pop top hanger made from missile nosecone! Quote
Bronco Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Alex_Mineev said: Hi, I've never seen such cheap ice screws before. What's wrong with them? Has anybody tried? http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47591401&parent_category_rn=4500716 I have some for glacier travel and just in case use only. You could probably find these on Ebay for half of that price. Quote
Rodchester Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 These screws have been around forever. They have actually gone up in price. They used to be $10.00 per screw. I have a hanful of them as do most guys I climb with. I agree that they are not the best leader screw, but I regulalry use them at belays, and will protect a lead on easier ice. With a Screamer, I feel comfortable with them. REI says to tilt them uphill. This should be done with all screws. I have seen tests with these screws and they actually rate fairly good, not great, but not bad. Light and cheap, but I wouldn't use them as the primary screw on a lead rack for steep WI. Quote
Sphinx Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Rodchester said: This should be done with all screws. WRONG! With modern screws in good ice the screw is strongest when tilted downhill (ie hanger is lower than the teeth). Craig Luebben did a bunch of tests on this. Quote
Lambone Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 I wouldn't trust these screws on a steep water ice pitch, plus you'd never get one in...they take tons of energy to place. However they do have some good uses. Emergency "leaver" screws if you need to bail. Light wiegth screws to beef up an anchor system. Also, lots of climbers in Nepal and stuff use them to fix lines for seige style climbing. Usually those ropes are fixed early in the season and left behind for later parties on standard routes. They are super light, so if you need lots of them at a high altitude it's a good way to go...you don't want to fall up there anyway. Quote
Rodchester Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Sphinx...you're right!! I just had a brain cramp!!! Quote
Dru Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Lambone said: I wouldn't trust these screws on a steep water ice pitch, plus you'd never get one in...they take tons of energy to place. However they do have some good uses. Emergency "leaver" screws if you need to bail. Light wiegth screws to beef up an anchor system. Also, lots of climbers in Nepal and stuff use them to fix lines for seige style climbing. Usually those ropes are fixed early in the season and left behind for later parties on standard routes. They are super light, so if you need lots of them at a high altitude it's a good way to go...you don't want to fall up there anyway. Lamebone if they take"tons of energy" to place you aint doing it right. With the small threads they sink right in quickly, as a matter of fact. In fact with the round clip in hole in the hanger they can even be spun in with one finger almost like an express screw! Quote
Mer Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 So what makes them prone to pulling out? Little threads, not enough threads? Quote
Sphinx Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Mer said: So what makes them prone to pulling out? Little threads, not enough threads? Both, plus small diameter, just not strong. Quote
Rodchester Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 (edited) I agree with dru that they are not that much harder, if at all, than a standard BD screw. I also believe that they pull more easily due to the smaller size of the threads. Placing Titian screws at +10 degrees while rappelling minimizes the chances of the screw ''backing out'' which would otherwise be more likely because of the small threads and diameter Edited September 24, 2003 by Rodchester Quote
catbirdseat Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Go weigh an Irbis titanium screw and then a BD Express 17 cm, which is the closest equivalent. The Ti weighs almost exactly half what the BD weighs. That's why people take them. Yes, they place easily in glacial ice, but they are harder to place in water ice. The small threads are the reason why I place them 90 degrees to the slope, whereas the Express should be tilted at 15 degrees down from the perpendicular. The smaller threads mean also they melt out faster. So they have their place as long as one knows their limitations. Quote
Dru Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 do you take a clinometer to measure the 15 degree offset? Quote
Sphinx Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 catbirdseat said: Go weigh an Irbis titanium screw and then a BD Express 17 cm, which is the closest equivalent. The Ti weighs almost exactly half what the BD weighs. That's why people take them. Yes, they place easily in glacial ice, but they are harder to place in water ice. The small threads are the reason why I place them 90 degrees to the slope, whereas the Express should be tilted at 15 degrees down from the perpendicular. The smaller threads mean also they melt out faster. So they have their place as long as one knows their limitations. They are perfect as tent stakes in hard ice! What would you rather have: two screws that'll rip right out, or one screw that will save your ass? Quote
Lambone Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 Dru said: Lambone said: I wouldn't trust these screws on a steep water ice pitch, plus you'd never get one in...they take tons of energy to place. However they do have some good uses. Emergency "leaver" screws if you need to bail. Light wiegth screws to beef up an anchor system. Also, lots of climbers in Nepal and stuff use them to fix lines for seige style climbing. Usually those ropes are fixed early in the season and left behind for later parties on standard routes. They are super light, so if you need lots of them at a high altitude it's a good way to go...you don't want to fall up there anyway. Lamebone if they take"tons of energy" to place you aint doing it right. With the small threads they sink right in quickly, as a matter of fact. In fact with the round clip in hole in the hanger they can even be spun in with one finger almost like an express screw! Ok, so maybe I'm just spoiled with Express screws... I just have a hard time getting them started. I've placed two and equalized them at the crux of a Syncronicity and I was damn pissed that it was all I had left...which is what I get for letting Notgotnomoney bringing the rack... Quote
Paul_detrick Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 Don't say they won't hold a leader fall, I've seen them do it, on professor falls up in the great white north, 10ft fall (20 altogether) bent the screw into a big C, but the guy leading was glad it held. No I do not lead with them, I use them like everyone else. But they can work, the ones I have are at least 8 yrs old. Quote
wdietsch Posted September 26, 2003 Posted September 26, 2003 Alex ..... if you are looking for some decent cheap screws ... take a look at these ... Black Diamond Tubular Screws @ REI-Outlet.com for $17.93 (10, 13 and 22 cm) Quote
Alex_Mineev Posted September 29, 2003 Author Posted September 29, 2003 I already have two 13cm of old BD that they sell for $17. I was looking for a couple screws a bit longer then 13cm. What do you guys think about this one: http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=G&Product_Code=6831B Quote
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