Attitude Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 In another thread, avatars are railing against Beck for chatting with political types. The only way to maintain the climbing corner of public space is to keep an open channel for dialog with such folks. Erik constantly bitching about the trail park program whenever rangers post on this site isn't the answer. Quote
Sphinx Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 Attitude said: In another thread, avatars are railing against Beck for chatting with political types. The only way to maintain the climbing corner of public space is to keep an open channel for dialog with such folks. Erik constantly bitching about the trail park program whenever rangers post on this site isn't the answer. But you've got to tread the line between keeping positive connections with bureaucrats, and making them aware of climbing, just to have them shut it down. Personally, I don't think Beck is very representative of the climbing community, so I don't want him being my spokesman. Quote
mattp Posted September 16, 2003 Author Posted September 16, 2003 Attitude and Sphinx - Lets see if we can stick to the topic here. This thread is not about whether Erik is just as obnoxious as the next guy, or whether folks are abusing Beck. Do you think we have a huge or a little problem when it comes to bolting cracks? Which statement is closer to the truth: Less than 1% of the climbs in places like Index or Leavenworth have bolted cracks. It is a problem, but not as bad as some poeple try to suggest. The practice is increasing: more and more cracks are being bolted in Index and Leavenworth and it is becoming an "accepable" practice. This poses a serious threat to the integrity these climbing areas. Quote
erik Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 matt i think that the your second statement is prolly more ture then the 1st. i can only see this as becoming a increasing issue as the years pass. one would think that with the modern "clean" gear that we would be able to push our standards more. are crags just trash piles designed to train us for real climbing? or are they an end all? i dunno, but it is certainly disapointing when i see a bolted crack, wheter it takes rp's or a #5 camalot. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 The number or bolted cracks is not high when comparing with the number of unbolted. But to see one stands out quite a bit from the rest in some people's eyes. Just a quick thought. Quote
Sphinx Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 If there's a crack that's bolted, chop the bolts. It isn't all that complicated. By sitting on your ass and posting on the internet all you do is send the message to the bolters that it's OK. Start chopping and they'll realize they were wrong. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 Sphinx said: If there's a crack that's bolted, chop the bolts. It isn't all that complicated. By sitting on your ass and posting on the internet all you do is send the message to the bolters that it's OK. Start chopping and they'll realize they were wrong. I posted something to that effect yesterday. And it does work in some situations but not all. I'm with you. But also note some of the drillers do read here. Whether or not they care is another matter. But they might get an idea where some people find it more acceptable than others and it may sway a decision now and then. Whatever. Quote
EWolfe Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 Sphinx said: If there's a crack that's bolted, chop the bolts. It isn't all that complicated. By sitting on your ass and posting on the internet all you do is send the message to the bolters that it's OK. Start chopping and they'll realize they were wrong. This is true. I have put up some routes I am not proud of in my younger days. People started bitching about one route in particular, and if they had chopped it I would not have really cared or gone back and rebolted it. It's too much work, and chopping usually comes about after some real bitchfests, adding further disincentive. You would have to be really egotistical to (a) chop a route without discussion (soley on your own beliefs[unless you are the first ascentionist]) or (b) go re-bolt a route that has been decided by consensus should be chopped. By the way, none of these were bolted cracks Quote
Sphinx Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 E, if you realize you made a mistake, why not go back and fix it? Quote
EWolfe Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 Sphinx said: E, if you realize you made a mistake, why not go back and fix it? I said I am not proud of them doen't mean they are not decent routes. Just not as good as some of the others - and I have received both positive and negative feedback on the ones I am not so proud of. Others think they are great, or bad. I saw the line and put it up, I don't feel a need to chop something with mixed reviews. If it had all been negative, well, yes, by all means. Quote
RenYawd Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 Sphinx said: If there's a crack that's bolted, chop the bolts. It isn't all that complicated. By sitting on your ass and posting on the internet all you do is send the message to the bolters that it's OK. Start chopping and they'll realize they were wrong. I wouldn’t advocate “chopping” bolts where it’s feasible (i.e., where they’re not glued in) to simply remove them (in whole). If someone is lame enough to bolt a crack in the first place, they may be dumb enough to drill more holes to replace bolts that have been chopped. Bolts aren’t really that expensive, so I don’t think that the destruction of one’s bolts will really be all that much of deterrent--the lame bolter will simply buy more. Quote
Dru Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 a hacksaw will saw through the bolt much more easily than messing around with a crowbar - if you dont mind leaving a shiny metal spot flush with the rock. Quote
Sphinx Posted September 16, 2003 Posted September 16, 2003 RenYawd said: Sphinx said: If there's a crack that's bolted, chop the bolts. It isn't all that complicated. By sitting on your ass and posting on the internet all you do is send the message to the bolters that it's OK. Start chopping and they'll realize they were wrong. I wouldn’t advocate “chopping” bolts where it’s feasible (i.e., where they’re not glued in) to simply remove them (in whole). If someone is lame enough to bolt a crack in the first place, they may be dumb enough to drill more holes to replace bolts that have been chopped. Bolts aren’t really that expensive, so I don’t think that the destruction of one’s bolts will really be all that much of deterrent--the lame bolter will simply buy more. What would you suggest? Quote
lancegranite Posted September 17, 2003 Posted September 17, 2003 good points! personal liabality is paramount in these situations. truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of these skirmishes, with both sides being "right"about something. Quote
mattp Posted September 18, 2003 Author Posted September 18, 2003 At the outset of this thread, I asked: How bad of a problem do we have with regard the ongoing bolting of cracks? I posted a poll, with 4 options: Three respondents said that bolts should never be placed next to cracks for any reason. The practice threatens climbing. Fourteen respondents said that there are too many bolts placed next to cracks, but they suggested that there may be situations were a bolt next to a crack is OK although they do not belong next to cracks that are "generally agreed" to be protectable (whatever that may mean). It is a growing problem. Thirteen said that bolts should generally not be placed next to cracks, but they would draw a distinction between "trad" areas and "sport" areas, and allow different practices in different areas. We should work to make people more concious of this issue. Five respondents said there is no problem with bolts being placed next to cracks. There is no problem. I've already been told that my poll sucks. You could question my polling technique, or my summary of the results, but I'd be more interested in discussing a couple of other points: (1) Is the fact that most people come down in the middle, somewhere between "zero tolerance" and "anything goes" is much of a surprise? (2) What is the conclusion you draw from the discussion over the last few days, where it was noted that less than 1% of the cracks in Index have received bolts and that there are some unquantified "too many" cracks that have been bolted in Leavenworth? Do we have a crisis? Quote
RuMR Posted September 18, 2003 Posted September 18, 2003 Matt...gotta be careful here...cc.com hardly speaks for the climbing community at large...so i'm not sure its a representative cross section of the folks around here... Quote
mattp Posted September 18, 2003 Author Posted September 18, 2003 You are correct, RuMR. CC.Com represents the community of those who have high-speed modem connections at work. These are obviously some messed up people, tied to their desk and probably impotent. It need not stop us from speculating on the meaning of life with or without bolted cracks, though. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 18, 2003 Posted September 18, 2003 I think that the poll was fine. You can go into more detail but I doubt it's really necessary to get the information you want. Some people might want to include something like : Bolted cracks ok before breakfast or something retarded. Quote
Dru Posted September 18, 2003 Posted September 18, 2003 3+14+13+5= 35 how many climbers are there in the PNW? Quote
mattp Posted September 18, 2003 Author Posted September 18, 2003 Dru, I think RuMR already made that point, but do you think the trend would do you think that the results would be significantly different if we polled all of the "actual" climbers in the region? What do you think? Do we have a crisis or is it really no big deal? Should there never be a bolt placed next to a crack, or is it OK? Quote
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