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What to do with a second rope?


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Still everybody is going on about the biner. Why would you use a biner in the first place? There is no need to use one. Am I stoned right now, no, granted I did ride my bike through the hippie infested hempfest area, but there was no herbal in the air.

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Sabertooth said:

The biner will fall more than 30 meters on a vertical rappel. It will fall past the rapel station you are pulling from. I've had it hit rocks after a 50 to 60 meter fall. You catch the biner all the time TG? Bullshit. I doubt you've even tried to.


For what it's worth; below is the PM that Sabertooth felt like sending me.


From: Sabertooth


I don't have the experience of judgement to back anything up? I have a degree in Materials Science. I have the experience to know that I've had that biner start falling from 30 meters above me and hit a rock well below the rap station pretty hard. My experience and judgement tells me to not use this biner for trad climbing. That reaks of a bored climber with a worthless opinion eh? What is your experience and judgement tell you? Climb the NF of Hood in the middle of summer so you can dodge rocks? Climbing Yocum in the fall? Chill with the condescending attitude dude.





Sabertooth, I think that you are the one being antagonistic. I'm not sure why you felt that my earlier post was a personal affront to you. Frankly, your degree in material science doesn't mean shit unless you have studied specific analysis of the effect of similar impacts on the alloys in question; just as my education in metalurgy and mechanical engineering don't give me anything but a very general knowledge of what can happen in impacts. Neither you nor I know for sure what impact force will damage a biner. I suspect that repeated sport falls on a narrow bolt hanger compromises a biner more than the falls in question.


My first point was that the biner is not really free falling 60m, both because of rope drag and its starting point. BTW you really don't know shit about my climbing history and I do indeed typically try to control the fall of a pulled rope, especially when gear is attached. Don't you? It's really not hard to grab the rope and controll the fall.


My main point, and I admit that it may not have been appropriatly stated, was that it is easy for a poster on this site to give advice. We all have opionions and some varing level of experience, but to state things as fact without science and testing to back it up, may in some cases cause people to discard perfectly good gear or trust gear that is compromised. I believe that I have made that sort of a mistake on this board when suggesting how to deal with the fear of leading...and retracted my statement. Because of this I am more careful when posting an opinion.


As far as you bringing up a couple of my climbs. That's pretty low..IMO. Especially since I publically admited making judgement errors. I will be the first to admit that I do not have perfect judgement. Who does. I'm not afraid of admiting my mistakes. When mistakes are shared, we can all be safer climbers because of it. But I still climb and am diligent in trying to improve my skills, knowledge and judgement.




S ramesy, If you choose to use a fig-8 for rappel, dress it a little better than the photo. Again it is really only appropriate for repeated pulls on slabs and with similar sized ropes. The EDK and double fish is more often a better choice.


....Sabertooth, I do have the experience on this to comment. I really have climbed a lot of slabs...Hell, I climbed 3200 feet of 5.8 to .10c yesterday.


BTW, can you enlighten us on how the impact forces on carabiner alloy relate to the temperature and centripetal stresses on a turbine blade. Maybe I'm a dolt, but I really can't see the relationship. I expect that the micro fissures in a turbine come from rapid heating and cooling under load where a carabiner bouncing on a rock undergoes a very small amount of work hardening and would take quite a bit of abuse before the moleculs in the metal align enough to embrittle it. It is my understanding that moderate impacts to aluminum alloy only tighten the matrix of molecules where as heat stress causes componet stratification and therefore a poorly bonded metalic matrix...which I would assume would lead to micro fissures. My 2 cents


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ken4ord said:

Still everybody is going on about the biner. Why would you use a biner in the first place? There is no need to use one. Am I stoned right now, no, granted I did ride my bike through the hippie infested hempfest area, but there was no herbal in the air.

You need the biner if there is no rappel ring there to catch the knot. If you do have a rappel ring, then you don't need the biner. In the example given, the biner was making sure that only the good rope took the strain in the single strand rappel, while the bad rope was not even passed through the rappel device. The bad rope was only used to retrieve the ropes.


What's a bad rope? One that was cut partially through by a falling rock, for example. Even if it were able to take weight without breaking, it might jam in your rappel device or at the anchor when you went to pull it.

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erik said:




One can tie another overhand inside the first one for extra security. The 4-6 in tails are together by the way.

This knot is used by many guides for rappels because it has a low profile opposite the tails and rarely gets hung

up. Don't be fooled by the name: it rockband.gif for rappels!

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