Sharpton is a fucking moron

[Dru]

victim of a

[j_b]

The Civil War was like 140 years ago.

 

true. but jim crow laws enforced segregation in most states through the 1960's.

[JayB]

Talk is cheap. If you are an advocate of reparations, then there's nothing to stop you from emptying your bank account, stopping the next black guy you see on the street and handing him everything you own. I am sure that you will find quite a few people who are willing to relieve you of both your guilt and your savings in this manner.

[Off_White]

I wanted to reply to JB who transformed the title to "trask is a trolling moron"

 

Well duh, the dude doesn't really care about more than when the next gin and tonic will be served to him on that little bitty deck he won't let his son sit on. If all you middle class white guys wanna take that worm and hook and run like the dickens like a breeding bluegill in the shallows defending it's nest, you go right ahead. You don't need to tell me that reparations are a stupid idea, but it does still suck hind titty to be black in America today. No easy answer's, just an acknowledgement that we're a long road away from a world where race and gender don't matter. I'm impatient, but that doesn't matter more than pissing into the Farewell Creek fire, though I reckon five billion people pissing into that conflagration could put it out.

[EWolfe]

[JayB]

Off_White said:

...but it does still suck hind titty to be black in America today.

 

Apparently it sucks a whole lot more to be Black in Africa, as there are literally millions of Africans who would jump at the chance to come over here and endure what passes for racial oppression in the United States these days.

 

 

 

[allthumbs]

Off_White said:

I wanted to reply to JB who transformed the title to "trask is a trolling moron"

 

Well duh, the dude doesn't really care about more than when the next gin and tonic will be served to him on that little bitty deck he won't let his son sit on. If all you middle class white guys wanna take that worm and hook and run like the dickens like a breeding bluegill in the shallows defending it's nest, you go right ahead. You don't need to tell me that reparations are a stupid idea, but it does still suck hind titty to be black in America today. No easy answer's, just an acknowledgement that we're a long road away from a world where race and gender don't matter. I'm impatient, but that doesn't matter more than pissing into the Farewell Creek fire, though I reckon five billion people pissing into that conflagration could put it out.

You cut me to the quick

 

[Off_White]

JayB, I've appreciated your research, but it doesn't change the fact that being black in America is less than being white. While its completely true that many black African doctors (or phd's in other fields) may be better off working as shoeshine boys in NYC, it in no way implies a level playing field across the races in the US today. If you cannot acknowledge that race matters in the US (we're not talking compared to other countries), then you're so fucking obtuse I will have to discard everything you've ever said on any topic as the ravings of an ignorant fool. I'm not suggesting remedies here, frankly I don't have any, but if you can't recognize that your racial heritage (five o'clock shadow be damned) gives you an edge in this country denied to an equally intelligent and erudite black (or any of a number of shades of brown) man, then you are seriously deluded. I'm glad as can be to have the advantages my racial heritage grants me, and I don't think that paying cash to folks of other colors will make up for anything, but don't tell me that we live in a perfect world.

[Off_White]

Cut you to the quick? Trask, dude, I would bring two gin and tonics (one for me) down to that tiny wooden pad to watch the sun set over the glorious sound on a day like today. You've got a good slice of the pie, good on ya mate!

[allthumbs]

and that deck runs 30' the other direction, genius

[Off_White]

Oooh, scored a hit in the old pride. BONUS!

 

Really, baby, it gets bigger if I'm excited.

[allthumbs]

hmmm, looks like I hit a chord

hahaha

[JayB]

Off_White said:

JayB, I've appreciated your research, but it doesn't change the fact that being black in America is less than being white. While its completely true that many black African doctors (or phd's in other fields) may be better off working as shoeshine boys in NYC, it in no way implies a level playing field across the races in the US today. If you cannot acknowledge that race matters in the US (we're not talking compared to other countries), then you're so fucking obtuse I will have to discard everything you've ever said on any topic as the ravings of an ignorant fool. I'm not suggesting remedies here, frankly I don't have any, but if you can't recognize that your racial heritage (five o'clock shadow be damned) gives you an edge in this country denied to an equally intelligent and erudite black (or any of a number of shades of brown) man, then you are seriously deluded. I'm glad as can be to have the advantages my racial heritage grants me, and I don't think that paying cash to folks of other colors will make up for anything, but don't tell me that we live in a perfect world.

 

Well OW, for what it's worth I agree with you on just about everything you said, but I would disagree with anyone who claimed that the color of one's skin is the primary determinant of one's fate in the US. I went to school with quite a few Black kids, some of who are doing pretty well now, some of who are not. Being as they were all Black, and therefore equally likely to be discriminated atgainst by folks who don't like Black people, the only things that can explain their differing fates are the variations in their personal traits, which have a lot to do with the sort of homes that they were raised in. Black kids from good homes that studied hard did well, black kids from bad homes that didn't study and/or work hard did poorly. Blacks who immigrate from the Carribean do pretty well here, black women earn more than their white counterparts with comparable qualifications, East Indians are more prosperous than whites, most Asians seem to be doing pretty well, an any member of an Indian tribe with land close enough to a large population of white people with more money than sense and a license to run a casino probably isn't hurting either, etc, etc, etc, etc. None of these phenomena are consistent with the "All social problems amongst minorities are a direct result of white racism" paradigm.

 

As long as humans are around, those in a minority will have more challenges to contend with than those in the majority, no matter what the laws state or what sort of preferences they are entitled to in certain institutions. It sucks to be non-Japanese in Japan, non-Korean in Korea, a person from Tribe B in an area populated by Tribe A, etc. etc. etc. I'm not advocating complaceny in these matters, but I think its time to recognize that things have changed enough that there are more important things than one's race when it comes to determining how well of one is in this society.

 

 

[Sphinx]

Of course everybody is descrimintated against in one way or another. That's why this thread is stupid!

[j_b]

None of these phenomena are consistent with the "All social problems amongst minorities are a direct result of white racism" paradigm

 

tsk tsk tsk. there was no discussion of "All social problems amongst minorities are a direct result of white racism", so stay on track. the issue is the status of a minority that has been in this country for ~200 years .... yes, 200 years. the fact that a minority on the average has such problems getting out of poverty after a 200 years time span undoubtedly questions the legacy of slavery, segregation and more recently general indifference (if not racism).

[Kiwi]

Winter said:The whole civil rights movement as well as affirmative action only increased tension between the races. We'd all be much better off if "they" just stayed in the ghetto where we want them.

 

Its awful easy to criticize black leaders when you're white. Its also awful easy to generalize when you're really talking about two very different leaders with very different styles.

I'm not white. Also, I never mentioned slave reparations in any of my replies. It was just me expressing my intense hatred of those two charlatans. Sharpton and Jackson are not MLK or Ghandi. They're con-men feeding the flames of racial tension.

 

One of my problem with them, is that they don't want equality, they want special rights. They want the law to look the other way when a black person commits a crime. There are many cases where Jesse Jackson and his rent-a-mob crew defend black people who are obviously guilty of the crime for which they are charged with. Claiming racism or injustice. This further perpetuates the victim mentality among blacks and thus causes further tension. This tension leads to further agression between blacks and whites, and then you have whites feeling more tension towards blacks. Viscious cycle.

 

As for reparations, it's a very complex issue. It's not clear cut like the Jews or Japanese during WW2.

[Kiwi]

j_b said:

None of these phenomena are consistent with the "All social problems amongst minorities are a direct result of white racism" paradigm

 

tsk tsk tsk. there was no discussion of "All social problems amongst minorities are a direct result of white racism", so stay on track. the issue is the status of a minority that has been in this country for ~200 years .... yes, 200 years. the fact that a minority on the average has such problems getting out of poverty after a 200 years time span undoubtedly questions the legacy of slavery, segregation and more recently general indifference (if not racism).

Indeed. Blacks are different from other minorities because they've been here the longest. Racism and victim mentality is ingrained into black Americans. It's institutional--on both sides.

 

New immigrants don't have that disadvantage because they haven't been poisoned by American racism so they have hope. They don't have an invisible wall keeping themselves down. Ignorance is bliss. Instead of sitting on their asses crying 'the man is keeping me down', new immigrants come here for a better life. Some are even entrepreneurial. Most have goals and dreams and as a result usually become very successful. However, this usually all disappears by the 3rd generation because their childrend have become comfortable with American life and are poisoned by American racism and aren't as motivated for success.

 

You can see a disparity in the mindset of black Americans (blacks born here) versus African Americans (immigrants from Africa) for this very reason.

 

Disclaimer: This doesn't apply to all black Americans, just the ones living in the ghettos. There are hard-working black Americans who push their kids to achieve. Not all black people blame the system. The same can be said for lower class white people. (Disillusionment with the American dream)

[allthumbs]

good post Kiwi, I agree with you

[JayB]

Kiwi said:

Sharpton and Jackson are not MLK or Ghandi. They're con-men feeding the flames of racial tension.

 

The Tawana Brawley fiasco merely being exhibit A.

 

 

[JayB]

j_b said:

None of these phenomena are consistent with the "All social problems amongst minorities are a direct result of white racism" paradigm

 

tsk tsk tsk. there was no discussion of "All social problems amongst minorities are a direct result of white racism", so stay on track. the issue is the status of a minority that has been in this country for ~200 years .... yes, 200 years. the fact that a minority on the average has such problems getting out of poverty after a 200 years time span undoubtedly questions the legacy of slavery, segregation and more recently general indifference (if not racism).

 

Actually, the discussion was framed around color rather than mentality, but the mentality argument is also a rather weak one. For one thing, if your hypothesis were true, Blacks would remain forever impoverished by this legacy even if all white people magically dissapeared or ceased to discriminate against them. Further, if one assumes that the vast majority of Blacks have a common history vis-a-vis slavery, Jim-Crow laws, and continuing discrimination based on color then they should all be equally hobbled by the collective psychic trauma that you attribute to them. This is clearly not the case, as if it were there would not be any successful Black people, of which there are in fact many millions. The cultural legacy you speak of undoubtedly exists, but the fact of widespread, and increasing Black success suggests that it is not the universally crippling impediment to achievement that you claim it to be.

 

 

And as a side note for the sake of basic historical accuracy/literacy, Blacks have been present in the US for considerably longer than 200 years. "Yes....200 years.." . Henry Louis Gates you are not. The first Blacks arrived in the US in 1619, 13 years after the first settlers arrived in Jamestown, and 184 years before the date that you cited.

 

 

[j_b]

Between 1450 and 1850, at least 12 million Africans were shipped from Africa across the Atlantic Ocean--the notorious "Middle Passage"-- primarily to colonies in North America, South America, and the West Indies.. 80% of these kidnapped Africans (or at least 7 million) were exported during the 18th century, with a mortality rate of probably 10- 20% on the ships enroute for the Americas. Unknown numbers (probably at least 4 million) of Africans died in slave wars and forced marches before being shipped. Within central Africa itself, the slave trade precipitated migrations: coastal tribes fled slave- raiding parties and captured slaves were redistributed to different regions in Africa.

 

bold is my emphasis. by 200 years ago the bulk of african slaves had arrived. it is true that slavery is much older, including that of native americans and poor whites.

 

http://innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html

 

finally i am not sure how you go from what i said to this: "if your hypothesis were true, Blacks would remain forever impoverished by this legacy even if all white people magically dissapeared or ceased to discriminate against them". it just does not follow logically. and i am not denying that some african americans are doing well/better, but we are talking average as it relates to the american average. then there is the condition of the very destitute, notably in the inner city.

[RobBob]

Neither Jackson nor Sharpton has taken public responsibility in their lives by holding mid-level office, etc. Instead they have been sideline loudmouths whose MO is to stir up negative feelings. I can't tell you how many times Jackson has shown up at factories, for instance, to stir up workers prior to a union vote.

 

j_b brings up an interesting subject about the millions of slaves brought to the Americas. What is left out of our perspective of this part of history is that a relatively small percentage of these slaves were brought to the United States. From memory (I don't have time to look it up), the US received roughly 500,000 slaves, and Europe received 400,000 slaves, while the Carribean received 5 million and South America likewise. Hell, listening to US and world commentary, you'd think that 90% of all slaves were brought to the US. It's time this bullshit stopped, as it only serves to foment more "victim" mentality and more devisiveness.