What about the Slabs, Oh Wise Ones....

[JayB]

“This evening I was bored, so I logged in for useful information on ice conditions and lofty ethical discussions…” Pope. 01-21-01.

Well, here you go… I don’t know how lofty the ensuing discussion will be, but after reading through some of the old posts on bolting I thought I’d present a scenario to folks who object to them, just to make sure I’m clear where they’re coming from. I’m not trying to “bait” anyone here or start a sprayfest, just get a more nuanced understanding of the logic and/or convictions that most objections to bolts are based upon.

Most of those who object to bolts appear to do so for one of the following reasons: they are placed next to features that can be protected by traditional methods, they render the risks on a particular climb trivial and thus reduce it’s character, they violate the character of the first ascent (retrobolting), they limit the possibilities for future climbers who may be able to ascend the line without fixed protection, they could be top-roped, or because they damage the rock. There are quite a few climbs out there where one or more of the points listed above are reasonable objections to bolting, but I can think of quite a few where none of them seem to make much sense. All of the climbs on Big Rock Candy Mountain in the South Platte, for example, seem to fit into this category.

These climbs start out with a mixture of slab/crack climbing and terminate in a series of low angle slab pitches with thought provoking (if not gut-wrenching) run outs between the ¼” bolts. Some pitches have only one or two bolts between the anchors, others pitches have bolts only at the anchors. All of the bolts on these climbs were installed on lead by straight-up-old-schooler hard-men like Pete Williams and Pete Gallager long before the advent of sport climbing.

So, let’s return to the list of objections to bolts that I’ve stated above and see how well they apply to these routes. Can the hundreds of feet of slab be protected by traditional methods? Not by any that I’m aware of, and if they were I’m sure that the first ascentionists, being trad climbers themselves (as all climbers were at this point), would have made use of these features instead of taking the time and effort required to install bolts with a hand drill. Have they rendered the risks on the climbs trivial? Only if you consider constantly risking 100 to 300 foot flesh-grinding tumbles down coarse granite with 1,000 feet of climbing beneath you trivial – and how many of us would really feel that way if we were out there on the sharp end. As the bolts were put in by the first ascentionists, one can hardly accuse them of compromising their own style – which was bold by anyone’s standard. Do they limit the possibilities for climbers in the future? Only if one claims that climbers in the future will be clamoring for the opportunity to crank out 400 feet of free-solo friction climbing on top of the 1000 feet of climbing they’ve already logged for the day. Top-roping? Let’s be serious. Do they permanently modify the rock? Well, yeah – but come on. Do a few ¼” holes on an expanse of rock that that literally encompases hundreds of thousands, if not millions of square feet of granite really constitute “damage” in any honest sense of the word? Several times as much granite probably washes off of the face of the mountain during a hard summer rainstorm as the bolts displaced. If you oppose these routes out of dedication to a conservation ethic, that’s fine. But if never, ever modifying the rock in any fashion whatsoever while climbing is the standard that we have to meet in order to be ethically sound, we’ll all need to abandon the sport altogether. Ever break off a hold, hammer in a piton, scrape off a pebble with your feet?

Anyhow, if you’re dead-set against bolts, what’s your take on these routes? Do you they pass your ethical scrutiny or fall short? If so, why? Is it really the bolts that you object to or is it the style of climbing, the mindset, and the sheer number of new climbers that their proliferation have lead to that you find objectionable. I’d be interested in hearing what you think. Pope/Dwayner…if you’re out there and suffering from insomnia have at it.

P.S. Just including your names because you seem to be the most vocal/articulate defenders of The Faith that post here and it sounds like you have always practiced what you preach when it comes to bolts/bolting.

[pope]

Jay

I think you've answered most of your own questions. If bolting were commonly confined to longer routes, on pitches where adequate crack protection does not exist, if bolts were used sparingly and avoided except in special cases....I wouldn't be nearly as upset. It is not the occasional, thoughtfully placed bolt to which I object; I never said, "All bolts are evil." I said the just the opposite (and for any amateur logicians lurking, the opposite of that statement is not "All bolts are not evil."

You mentioned that those bolts are placed on the lead....to me, that makes the route far more legitimate, even if the end result is the same (although lead-bolted routes always seem to be more sporty to repeat than rap-drilled bolt trails). The bolts are still ugly, and I think the mountains lose their wilderness appeal with each bolt that gets drilled. Nevertheless, the bolting practices that you describe, regardless of what lurking amateur historians might say, are considered by "traditional" climbers to be less objectionable and a purer form of mountaineering than rap bolting. It's basic: start from the bottom and you're climbing. Start from the top....well, that's something else. Isn't it?

Whether these practices are really "traditional", whether or not they can be considered part of a "Yosemite-school" approach, if (wishful thinking here) NW climbers adopted this ground-up approach, here would be a few consequences I think we could expect:

1. The rate at which new, bolted routes go in would be greatly retarded, as lead bolting requires greater skill and time investment.

2. Those establishing new routes would most likely put in routes that have more character and offer more adventure.

3. As lead-bolted routes often provide fewer places to fall/rest/hang/rehearse, climbers would climb more honestly, within their limits and with less aid. In short, climbers would have to redefine what "free" climbing is.

4. Repeating these lead-bolted routes would require a more controlled approach with less reliance on bolts/aid, and crag climbers would be better prepared for alpine rock. While accidents might initially occur with greater frequency at the crags, mountain routes would see a decrease in accidents.

5. Young climbers would begin to see the hills as much more than just a place to recreate (hunt, drive a Jeep, ride a snow machine, sport climb, and other destructive practices). Instead, perhaps they would decide that moutains are worth preserving so that every generation can experience the sense of adventure you get when climbing rock w/o fixed gear, just like a pioneer.

Sure I'm full of crap. No, it's never going to happen. Sure, I get tired of talking about it. But maybe some kid will read it and say, "Hey, that makes a lot of sense." Besides, you asked.

[AlpineK]

I climb anything. However I find that sporto routes just don't hold my attention. There is a big difference from a modern sport route and an old style bolted face. Some of the old face routes in J tree and other places are really scetchy. 30' between rusted old 1/4" bolts. It takes a lot of guts to lead a route like that and I can only imagine even more guts to put it up.

In the old days even hanging on a hook while drilling was suspect. Today with power drills and rap bolting ethic it is easy to put up a route and so a lot more routes get put up. Also when you have to set the route ground up you must be a much better climber, and I think this is part of why sport route ratings are so easy.

I go over to Vantage a couple times a year, but every time I get there I feel my will to live being sucked from me, and I wish I had just stayed home.

[JRCO]

JayB - I too have climbed many of the South Platte runout slabs. My thoughts are why even bolt the line if your fall will result in death regardless of the bolts. I don't climb those routes unless the runout parts are supper easy. Even then it scares the hell out of me.

[pope]

Alpine,

You nailed it, my friend. A place like Vantage epitomizes how crag climbing requires very little of what used to be required in rock work (courage, skill, honesty, restraint, experience, reverence, self-preservation instinct). Anybody strong enough to do a pull-up and smart enough to clip a bolt can climb the cutting edge routes there. I think that approach to climbing has its place, on really steep, super chossy cliffs on another continent.

My concern is not that sport cliffs exist, nor do I want everybody to climb the way I do. I am concerned about the way bolts seem to proliferate, as though they throw out into the wind little spores which can't help but to infect our finest traditional crags.

[willstrickland]

Jay,

You've essentially answered your own questions. When you do routes such as the ones you describe, even easy ones...Snake Dike comes to mind...they definitely don't feel like a sport route. By removing the "head" factor, you eliminate a huge factor in climbing the route. If bolt proliferation continues, climbing will be reduced to genetics where the dude with the strongest grip strength to weight ratio will always be the best climber (Dave Graham is an example, read the description one famous female sporto gives of seeing him onsight some hard route at Rifle a few years ago, botching every sequence and still pulling it off on strength alone). Ever wonder why one of Sharma's self-proclaimed top climbs was a trad route (Rostrum with Excellent Adventure finish)

[Chongo]

1) Sharma's "50 favorite" was the Rostrum because routes included in that book had to be multipitch climbs, and that was one of about 3 he'd ever done...Kroese wouldnt accept the Mandala.

2) Bolts are good in moderation, just like work, sex, beer, drugs, K Mart specials, gas station burritos and breast implants. Things that are NOT good even in moderation include Osama bin Laden, flesh colored Lycra, cops gone bad, genital warts and chupacabras.

[mattp]

If bolt proliferation continues, climbing will be reduced to genetics where the dude with the strongest grip strength to weight ratio will always be the best climber

I agree with the sentiment, but sport climbers will tell you there is technique involved in addition to strength, even on crimpy overhangs, and when it comes to slab climbing the strongest grip strength in the world won't do you a bit of good. I've seen strong sport climbers doing the dog paddle and getting nowhere on the slabs at Goat Dome in the Icicle -- and it was only in part because the bolts were too few for them -- some could do no better when following than when leading.

[willstrickland]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chongo:

1) Sharma's "50 favorite" was the Rostrum because routes included in that book had to be multipitch climbs, and that was one of about 3 he'd ever done...Kroese wouldnt accept the Mandala.

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Not talking about that book. Go read the Climbing article on America's Best or some such thing back about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago. Had Bachar on the cover soloing The Gift if I remember correctly. The article lists their "proud five" or something like that, had profiles on Gadd, Kennan Harvey, Buhler, etc.

[chucK]

The best definition of a sport climb that I have yet heard goes something like this: A climb bolted in such a way to allow focus on the physical act of climbing free from worry about injury. If you agree with this definition then sport climbing is all about divorcing certain mental aspects from climbing.

Some people like sports climbing, some people prefer the whole package. The problem with a bolt is that it removes tangible difficulty from the route. Sure, that difficulty is mental and has nothing to do with ape-index or grip strength, but it is a difficulty that many climbers find enjoyable to overcome. The more bolts proliferate the more this kind of challenge will be removed.

Bolts are a tradeoff. For every bolt placement there is a level of climber for whom that bolt "opens up" the route for leading. For climbers above that level, the bolt merely reduces challenge.

Chuck

[pope]

Take a typical pitch at Vantage. What does a sport climber want from it? He wants an experience in gymnastic movement, without any worry of injury, and without lots of dangly equipment to get in his way. What does a traditional climber want? An adventure, a challenge, a wilderness experience in which the rock is left more or less the way he found it (save for a little lichen loss).

It would appear that, when the pitches are short (like at Vantage, which is essentially practice climbing to begin with), when the top is reasonably easy to access (first requirement for a sport climb, right?), wouldn't everybody win if instead of beating the dignity out of the rock with a bunch of bolts, people just established the routes as top-rope climbs? That's the way it used to work, and it worked well.

[chucK]

quote:

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Originally posted by pope:

[...]wouldn't everybody win if instead of beating the dignity out of the rock with a bunch of bolts, people just established the routes as top-rope climbs? That's the way it used to work, and it worked well.

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I've often wondered about this too. Here's my best guess. Most people are not completely fulfilled by the "gymnastic" movement aspect. They like a little mix. You know like when you buy a sixer of that primo beer and mix it up a little, a couple of pales , two ambers , two IPA's [NO hefe blech!] etc... Anyway, it seems plausible that some climbers like to be mostly removed from danger and inconvenience, but at the same time like just a little spice, a little committment. Just...need...to...get...to...that...next...bolt. Sorta like on a runout trad lead where you need to concentrate on sucking it up for 30 feet to the next placement, at Vantage you can concentrate on cranking continuously for 5 feet before your next safety anchor. I surmise that for many the desire for the slight tint of danger/committment outweighs their concerns with respect to "beating the dignity out of the rock".

Plus there's the lingering mystique of "leading" and the fact that on way overhung stuff it's probably more convenient to lead.

Chuck

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by chucK:

I surmise that for many the desire for the slight tint of danger/committment outweighs their concerns with respect to "beating the dignity out of the rock".

Chuck

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Chuck, I think you couldn't be more correct. It's a sign of the times. We never fail to satisfy our whims, to follow selfishly the compulsion of our insatiable egos, common sense, aesthetics, sportsmanship and the good of the community be damned.

[pope]

I'm weary of apologizing for my disdain for irresponsible bolting, especially when otherwise intelligent readers won't consider my comments within the context I so carefully constructed. My last post suggests not what MattP reports, rather I'm simply saying that the short climbs at Vantage would be best left as top-rope climbs. People who bolt these climbs on rap do so thoughtlessly, because they don't understand that what they want out of climbing can be achieved on a top-rope, in perfect safety, without the bloody mess. I do think they're dishonest, pretending that clipping these bolts has anything to do with leading. They want the sensation of leading a route (as Chuck mentions), but they don't want any risk associated with it. Fine, then go top-rope the darn thing. Or, if you want a little bit of risk, top-rope it with a bunch of slack.

People who rap bolt such routes are beating the dignity out of the rock. Whether or not they disdain the community is not something on which I commented. When top-roping makes so much sense in Vantage, those who would transform such a beautiful place into an amusement part are doing so without regard for any kind of wilderness ethic, without any sense of preserving natural beauty for future generations. I'll stick by my statements. The place looks like hell, and I'm not apologizing for being upset. Again, I didn't wake up this morning with the intent of offending anybody, I was asked. It would be impossible to overstate my feelings for how the bolting trend has degraded a sport I once loved. And please, in the future, don't project my thoughts and comments on the mess at Vantage onto "all climbers who like to clip bolts." Go back to what Chuck said about how the desire for a little thrill in climbing between bolts is more of a consideration than preserving the beauty and dignity of the place. What could possibly motivate such a choice, if not ego?

[Dru]

I like power drillin' BRRRRRRRP BRRRRP BRRRRP BRRRP tnk tink tink!

I like runouts too. But I dont like hitting stuff when I fall off cause it hurts. So usually I try not to fall in that situation.

Bolt ladders are dumb

Anymore ethical wisdom ??

[mattp]

Yo Pope -

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I honestly thought you said that all it takes to climb the cutting edge routes at Vantage is the strength to do a pull up and the intelligence to clip a bolt (to me, an expression of disdain), and that those who want to satisfy their ego in such a manner must feel that the community be damned (to me, another expression of disdain). Why don't you show up at a pub club sometime, and we can continue this discussion face to face, where misunderstandings are less likely to occur. Or better yet, lets go climbing sometime. I mean it -- I'm not trying to be smartass, but only suggesting that in this on-line medium we don't seem to be getting anywhere. It seems mostly to be the same four or five guys, repeating the same old arguments, with no real dialogue and little prospect of convincing either those that do or those that do not participate of anything other than the fact that we enjoy wasting time on the internet.

- mattp

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

[JayB]

Hey Pope, Chuck, et Al:

Thanks for taking the time to post a well considered response. I definitely have a better understanding of where you’re coming from after reading through what you’ve written – and that’s what I was looking for. While it’s not an ethic that I share, I have a certain admiration for those who adopt a strict code (be it vows of chastity, silence, or not clipping bolts) and have the integrity to stick to their guns, even if their example fails to persuade others to follow their lead. Perhaps there’s a compromise out there that everyone can live with

For me that means honoring the ethics that prevail at a particular crag when I climb there. When I want to clip bolts and climb at my limit without risking serious injury I head to Shelf. Honest trad leads – the Platte or Eldo. Alpine – RMNP fits the bill. Old-school slab climbing? The Platte once again. Sick 150’ runouts above old ¼” star drive bolts? Well, to be honest I have yet to get the urge but when I do I know where to go. Wherever I climb I know what I’m getting into and modify my approach to climbing accordingly. Same deal with resort vs backcountry skiing. I ride lifts most of the time but when I head for the backcountry I know that I’m playing a different game and carry different equipment and a different mentality into the hills just like when I'm climbing. Anyhow, thanks for the posts.

[mattp]

But Jay, we might still entertain ourselves here. I think we are mostly all well-balanced and mature, thoughtful climbers around here, and I'm hoping we might address bolting and stylistic questions without simply repeating old arguments like "bolts suck and sport climbers aren't climbing" or "you trad nazi's don't know what you are talking about in this modern era" or whatever else has been said so many times. I suggested that Pope and I might better discuss the question of whether sport climbing is good or bad somewhere other than on this web site, but I think the question initially raised was one that we might be able to discuss without getting back to the rhetorical snake eating its tail. How do slab climbs fit into the sport-to-trad spectrum, and how do those who dislike sport bolting feel about bolted slabs. An equally interesting question to me would be, how do those who like sport climbing feel about them.

Latch wrote that "When a person creates a route and puts a huge runnout into it, it's either because of ego (I'm bolder than you are), they were out of control (I can't down climb and their are no stances), the climbing is trivial for them or they are short on bolts. I don't know of anyone I have ever climbed with who went up on a blank slab and not put in a bolt because of environmental concerns." and I would generally agree with this statement. That leaves aside the question, however, as to whether a slab "needs" to be climbed at all, of course, and some of you may have another point pertinent to the topic. Maybe you agree with what I believe to be Jay's point that in an idea world there would be some areas that are run out and some that are not. Anybody else have another idea?

[Dru]

I find, on slab climbs, much of the time on harder routes continual motion is the key to climbing, and if you stop, you fall off. so it makes sense to only have bolts at stances, you cant clip the other ones anyways, and if you fell off and hit an unclipped bolt it could hurt you. but again, on most slabs, taking a 30 or 40 footer wont cause any permanent damage, so its easier to run it out than on a vertical face with bulges and overhangs where you could swing into the wall and impact.

[Bronco]

quote:

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Originally posted by pope:

5. Young climbers would begin to see the hills as much more than just a place to recreate (hunt, drive a Jeep, ride a snow machine, sport climb, and other destructive practices). Instead, perhaps they would decide that moutains are worth preserving so that every generation can experience the sense of adventure you get when climbing rock w/o fixed gear, just like a pioneer.

Sure I'm full of crap. No, it's never going to happen. Sure, I get tired of talking about it. But maybe some kid will read it and say, "Hey, that makes a lot of sense." Besides, you asked.

---

Yes you are full of crap and "Hey that makes a lot of sense" Maybe one of these days you can go hunting "just like a pioneer" and "experience the sense of adventure". I'd be interested in knowing why you think hunting is destructive. I mean other than the obvious part about killing inocent animals.

Actually I'm not really interested. I've had too much coffee today and just wanted to start another arugment.

[pope]

Bronco, you some kind of Bambi killer? If you were a real man, you'd go hunting with a muzzle loader like my brother. In fact, I know a guy who hunts bear with a bow. Now that's manly. Think that guy would clip bolts? Think he gets kiwi in his latte?

OK, MattP, we need to go climbing. But in the mean time, I'll be waiting for some fresh perspectives from your end. I've got a tough time making these pub things, but I realy need some beer.

[Bronco]

quote:

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Originally posted by pope:

Bronco, you some kind of Bambi killer? If you were a real man, you'd go hunting with a muzzle loader like my brother. In fact, I know a guy who hunts bear with a bow. Now that's manly. Think that guy would clip bolts? Think he gets kiwi in his latte?

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Admitted bambi, daffy, smokey and other mammal killer. Black Bear hunting with a bow, done it. Not as exiting as you might think, but takes a lot of skill, confidence and some nerve, (all traits to shoot for in trad climbing).

Speaking of trad, I prefer trad but would clip a bolt if a death plunge crater maker was on the radar with no other pro available. I don't drink expresso. I am a capitalist redneck who listens to Cris Ledoux.

[chucK]

quote:

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Originally posted by pope:

I've got a tough time making these pub things, but I realy need some beer.

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Hah! I'm having a beer right now!

"Where do slab climbs fit into the sport-trad spectrum?" Well, if you use my above-stated definition of a sport climb then most of those "modern" slab climbs up at Darrington are sport climbs. On the other hand, the old runout death climbs up there, the more runout ones at Static Point, and the South Platte climbs JayB describes are not.

"Does a slab need to be climbed at all?" No. But neither does anything else. Bolting slabs makes them climbable to more people (me included). I don't think that is bad.

Nothing out there NEEDS to be climbed. Nothing out there NEEDS to be bolted. Some more so than others. If a climb is easily toproped, I think there's very little reason that it needs to be bolted, e.g. Red M&M's at Vantage.

I think it would be interesting to hear from those who think it IS desirable to bolt easily topropable climbs. My previous post on this subject was pure conjecture. I'd be interested to see if it has any basis in fact. I think I pretty well laid out my take on the con's of this practice. What are the pro's?

[AlpineK]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bronco:

Admitted bambi, daffy, smokey and other mammal killer. Black Bear hunting with a bow, done it. Not as exiting as you might think, but takes a lot of skill, confidence and some nerve, (all traits to shoot for in trad climbing). .

---

I've got some rats in my basement that are pissing me off. Come on over and bring your gun I'll give you a Schmidt Ice.

[JayB]

Good posts Matt/Chuck:

Concerning the run-out issue – in my opinion it all depends on the context. Was the line bolted on lead during an era when long, dangerous run-outs were the rule? Fine. Is the line on a relatively remote formation where it will be climbed primarily by experienced folks who are seeking out that sort of experience. Fine again. Old-school and remote. Wonderful. I’ll head out there and climb the line when and if I’m ready for it.

The only places where I think that run-out death routes are inappropriate are at crags frequented by large numbers of climbers and/or beginners. Boldness and commitment have their place but taking a piece of rock that could be enjoyed by a large number or climbers at a local crag and turning it into a mummified death-route is a bit selfish(IMO). To quote latch “Cool I was bold enough to do something dangerous but now I have created something that hardly anyone will want to do and is potentially dangerous.” I know it’s cool to be the hardman, diss a concern for safety as a crutch for the weak and the timid, and to invoke some sort of Darwinian sarcasm with regards to gumbies “If they can look at a climb and tell that it’s too hard for them, they deserve to (*&ing crater and die man.” Maybe, but I doubt anyone would be so glib at the base of the climb after someone has fallen and sustained a life threatening injury and/or been killed as the result of a simple mistake or minor oversight.

In the end, a solid education and a respect for one’s limits are the best way to prevent injuries/death, but I for one think that it’s okay to have areas where beginners can learn to climb and lead where the penalties for a mistake are not quite so high. I doubt I’m the only one who can think back to their first leads and be thankful for the mistakes that they got away with.

And, Chuck, you asked if there are people out there who enjoy leading sport routes that can be TR’ed. I’ll take the bait – I’m one of them. As far as the motivation for doing so is concerned, I think you were right on. Am I the only one? I doubt it. Anyone else care to come forward? I suspect that at least 75% of the people that post/lurk here clip bolts but don’t feel strongly enough about the issue to endure the inevitable flamefest to admit it. But I doubt that sport climbing is the only type of climbing that they do. If that was all I did maybe I’d be more reluctant to admit that amongst an audience that seems to respond to anyone who climbs for fun (ever) with such unrelenting hostility. But that’s not the case – I spend about 80% of my time on ice, trad, and alpine routes and consequently am not too worried about people dissing me because I clip bolts.

Anyhow, not only do I clip bolts I very often get gripped when doing so ( I was sort of hoping that I wouldn’t after taking up trad/ice but unhappily, this has not been the case). If the first bolt is more than about 14 feet off the ground, it looks like I could ground out before clipping the second bolt, or it seems I’ll fall a long way and/or hit something on the ground I admit that my pulse races, my feet start twitching, and my palms begin to sweat and the fear that I fear forces a concentration and focus, and generates a set of rewards that I’ve never felt on TR – and that’s why I lead them. Sure there are quite a few bolted routes that you could TR with a bunch of slack but quite honestly that just seems silly and contrived to me.

Anyhow, although I have a better understanding of where the folks who detest sport climbing are coming from - and I appreciate the fact that they’ve taken the time to do so – knowing how they feel is one thing, and changing what I climb because they do so is quite another. Any objective "Pro's" to clipping bolts on such climbs? None besides preference, I suppose, but that and the fact that I've never found the objections to putting bolts on routes that can't be protected with gear persuasive does the job for me.

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]