billcoe Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 NO re-bolting at Rocky Butte. I was just out there climbing with some of you guys and no one brought it up. Let me say it now, NO BOLTS. If you feel the need to bolt, show up with a broom, wire brush, and a rotohammer and do a new line. Theres plenty still there. Kelly Warden just cleaned 2 off by Silver Bullet. Then you can bolt all you want, if you are putting in the line. If you want to do something - go get the rest of the trash out of there, both on the ground and the needless anchors which remain. Were any of you who want to put in bolts there at the last Rocky Butte cleanup that Mike organized via the Access Fund? I'm sure you have good intentiona. But NO Bolts, please. Now for some egg on my face action: Hal, you are welcome, that was me. I put those anchor bolts in in both those routes. I realize now that it was wrong to have done so. I have since been talked into the belief that I should not have done that. I won't pull them, and won't begrudge somebody pulling them out, if it was to do over again, I wouldn't put those bolts in. But thats water under the bridge for me. I was wrong. Sorry- Madrone is closed. The Umqua looks like it gonna be closed soon. Ask yourself why. If anybody has on overwelming need, and wants to go drill random bolts, my feeling is go do it in your front sidewalk, backyard or out on the roadway curb by your house- or someplace else. I grew up at Rocky Butte, built my first cabin there in 1966 or so, been shot at by the quarry caretaker and ridden my stingray all through that area with my friends and brothers long before the freeway came in. I have climbed there on and off over 30 years as well. I love that place, condoms broken glass and all. All those climbs are easy and safe to toprope. I set up Bluebird with Crackman last week and had 4 awesome pieces in with a safety rope off the big fir tree as well. If "safety" is the arguement, ie, need those new bolts put back in for safety, them shouldn't we add bolts to all the crack lines at Smith, Beacon, Yosemite and everywhere so gumbys and newbies can stick it safetly on lead? I suspect it is for convienance, not safety. Thats why I added the bolts to the 2 routes just noted, stictly for convineance. But I was wrong to have done so. Chop them if you would like, fine with me. But it would be seriously wrong for any of you to go put bolts in or add bolts as well is my feeling. Please consider your actions. Regards: Bill Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 Sheesh, that's fucked. Sounds like below the edge or keep kissing bolts g'bye. People could still do a short rap off a tree to the anchor and then rig a TR. A bit of a hassle, but not as much of a hassle as replacing boltz. Quote
b-rock Posted July 23, 2003 Posted July 23, 2003 Dunno, we're talking anchors here not 'random bolts'. Given the nature of the crag and the shithead punks that are always wandering around and fukking with things, it is far better IMO to have the anchor over the edge than it is to sling any of the many bomber trees and run a rope over the trail. While you can set up a gear anchor on some climbs it is difficult for most. Bill, I seem to recall you taking advantage of said anchors? Ok, next time I'll bring my rack and cordallettes, no bolts, no chains. Quote
Hal_Burton Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 Bill, I thank you again for placing those anchors at RB. I appreciate the convience aspect, but it isn't the only reason I'll use them as long as they're there. As RB is approach from above, bolts near or over edge make for anchors less likely to get fukt with once you have them set up and you're down over the edge. I spend alot of time out there solo TRing and its always worrisome to have my rope running across the trail to a tree and not know who is walking around up there. Solid anchors also attract more climbers. Some might begrudge this point, but at a place like RB it keeps the climbs cleaner and lets us watch out for each other. We've all had our run ins with the less respectful vistors out there, and I think the more climbers we attract, the less attractive it will be for those sorts. New anchors promote forgoten classics. I cleaned Tiger Pause a little last year. Yesterday I was inspired to give it the full scrubbing. I really hope people rediscover this gem. Perfect steep 5.9 hand crack finish. 90% clean now. Great anchors to boot. I do think that you are right in that our energy should first go to cleaning up garbage, cleaning off old or new routes (I started reclaiming Temporary Arete from the ivy) and making it a better place to climb. Adding a little safety and convenience wouldn't hurt tho. Quote
billcoe Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 B-rock: sorry for my pyshchotic attitute about the bolts. In some places there is a big benefit from bolts. Certainly silver bullet, where we were at, which got the bolts with the first ascents and has no/few cracks should have the bolts there. Bluebird had no bolts for over 40 years, had thousands of Toprope and lead ascents and then some bolts pop in - totally and 100 percent needlessly. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=32161&Forum=All_Forums&Words=rocky%20butte&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=32161&Search=true#Post32161 That is an anti-bolt thread linked above. In it, Don Gonthier says " They should be chopped (lead bolts on?) . Along with the new anchors on Vertical Therapy. " I agree with you Joe, you want to chop the bolts at the top of vertical threapy, my vote is do it!!!I would politley suggest that it be carefully crafted so that it looks good: clean and natural without any studs sticking out/mangled crap/rock visible kind of thing. I knew Joe Parsley. Joe could have put in bolts when he FA'ed the thing. He did not. Hell, I lived with Dennis in 1978 when we both were doing construction and in fact later purchased his hand drill. They could have drilled anchor bolts there, they had the stuff to do so. But didn't need too or want to. Years later somebody did add some bolts (higher than the current ones), and I think it might have been Joe who chopped them himself. Years go by and then somebody shows up and sticks in a couple of un-necessary anchor bolts. What can you say? I haven't seen Joe or Dennis for uyears, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't them. (it wasn't Dennis, he quit climbing). So who did it? Why? Most importantly, should they be chopped as Don G. suggests? My vote is yes, but do a competant job. " Hal_Burton said: Bill, I thank you again for placing those anchors at RB. I appreciate the convience aspect, but it isn't the only reason I'll use them as long as they're there. As RB is approach from above, bolts near or over edge make for anchors less likely to get fukt with once you have them set up and you're down over the edge. I spend alot of time out there solo TRing and its always worrisome to have my rope running across the trail to a tree and not know who is walking around up there. Solid anchors also attract more climbers. Some might begrudge this point, but at a place like RB it keeps the climbs cleaner and lets us watch out for each other. We've all had our run ins with the less respectful vistors out there, and I think the more climbers we attract, the less attractive it will be for those sorts. New anchors promote forgoten classics. I cleaned Tiger Pause a little last year. Yesterday I was inspired to give it the full scrubbing. I really hope people rediscover this gem. Perfect steep 5.9 hand crack finish. 90% clean now. Great anchors to boot. I do think that you are right in that our energy should first go to cleaning up garbage, cleaning off old or new routes (I started reclaiming Temporary Arete from the ivy) and making it a better place to climb. Adding a little safety and convenience wouldn't hurt tho." Thanks Hal, it must be only you and me doing those routes - I solo both those routes to, and keep cleaning them off too. I haven't seen Mike Pajunus for years, but I hope and believe he would want just what both of us want, his routes clean and enjoyed by all. Your expanation was exactly why I put them in. But the glass and shit is still accumulating faster than I can pick it up at the top, and at this point I've almost given up. In either case, I'm not putting in any bolts unless specicially asked by the FA er. Now Kelly has asked me. And I have a rotohammer and stainless bolts I will loan/give him. But those are new routes, and FYI, Kelly is soliciting opinions right now so that he can do what the community wants done. Don't blame me if you haven't been asked yet. kellys the guy with lon red hair and a strageley sort of wispy beard. Great guy, I enjoy his company, say hi if you see him. Thats all I have to say, I don't want a fistfight or a dogfight here. I find myself wrong all of the time, and don't want to be so arogant as to tell anybody that something is BLACK or WHITE. It usually isn't. I have noticed that the longer somebody has been climbing, the less appreciative they are of some newbie trying to make their climbing area over into a climbing gym. This tends to hold true for most climbing areas, Smith being the exception of course. B-rock, what say to Young warriors at Beacon this weekend? Quote
Winter Posted July 24, 2003 Posted July 24, 2003 Maybe we should bolt brock to the top of the Silver Bullet and use him as a TR anchor. Quote
sketchfest Posted July 25, 2003 Posted July 25, 2003 Winter said: Maybe we should bolt brock to the top of the Silver Bullet and use him as a TR anchor. You could, but he probably wouldn't be there for long because somebody would probably steal him as climbers booty. Quote
iain Posted July 25, 2003 Posted July 25, 2003 the bible college chicks over at hoth base across the street would have their way with him Quote
sketchfest Posted July 25, 2003 Posted July 25, 2003 b-rock said: and I got a nice booty too. Uhh..yeah, ummm brock, you might want to stop using that carnival mirror to judge what looks good and what doesn't! Quote
Doug_Hutchinson Posted July 27, 2003 Author Posted July 27, 2003 Great discussion, although I still feel the anti-re-bolting argument has not been articulated well enough for me to understand it. Proposal: Any and all interested in this issue meet near the Breakfast Cracks this Tuesday (7/29) night between 5:15 and 6:00 to discuss. No new hardware will be installed, discussion only. However, since I strongly agree with those who suggest the Butte needs more cleanup work, bring a garbage bag, you'll fill it in a few minutes. Quote
texplorer Posted July 27, 2003 Posted July 27, 2003 Doug and the rest, I am concerned about bolting at the butte but am currently living in Eugene and will not make it to your discussion. Please cast a vote from me for no new bolts of any kind. There are plenty of natural anchors there and bolted anchors, while convenient and useful, are unnecessary. Please keep the crags from becoming outdoor climbing gyms. Thanks, The Texplorer Quote
b-rock Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 texplorer said: and bolted anchors, while convenient and useful, are unnecessary. IMO they are no more convenient, but are a better (safer) choice than slinging trees accross the trail. I am seriously concerned about the sketching punks that run around that place, perhaps it has not always been that way? Can anyone tell me when the bolt anchors on Vertical Therapy were put in? Blueberry Jam? White Rabbit? I only started climbing at Rocky last year so I'm curious. 'New anchors' is a relative term I guess. I agree with Hal, the more of a climbing community we can build out there, the safer we will all be. Hope we can all have a good discussion on Tuesday. And yeah, bring a garbage bag. I pulled a case of empty PBRs and Wendy's wrappers out from the base of Toothpick on Saturday, yuk. Quote
catbirdseat Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 The best way to discourage trash is IMHO is to have a big cleanup and get the place spotless. Then perhaps make individuals wardens of particular areas to make sure it stays picked up. If people (the litterers) see trash on the ground something in their heads tell them its okay to throw more trash on the ground. If they don't see any, at least some of them will be discouraged to toss it. It would take a lot of hard work and time, but I think it might be possible to get ahead of the problem. Quote
b-rock Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 Nice thinking Catbirdseat but I think the punk ass kids that show up to drink, fuck, and get high will leave their trash no matter what. But yes, it would be nice to get on top of things. Last years (?) cleanup had things looking relatively nice. Quote
Winter Posted July 28, 2003 Posted July 28, 2003 Stupid kids. Don't they know only adults are supposed to screw and do drugs?! Quote
Winter Posted August 27, 2003 Posted August 27, 2003 The bolting war continues. Two weeks ago, I found three new bolts atop White Rabbit at the Breakfast Cracks. Yesterday, all three were gone. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me, but there you have it. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted August 28, 2003 Posted August 28, 2003 what is up with oregon... it seems like its bolting problems are exponentially greater than in washington, but mabe people in WA jsut know how to keep their mouths shut then they place/rip a bolt... are the disparities in bolting or merely in the atalking amoung bolters/yankers? Quote
wayne Posted August 28, 2003 Posted August 28, 2003 Each area has its own little culture. Its not all state to state. You wont see many bolts chopped at smith. but Rocky butt will see the dirties of bags hack mercilessly forever there. Get used to it. Bring long slings and watch your shit! Quote
b-rock Posted September 2, 2003 Posted September 2, 2003 The second bolt around the corner on Birds of Paradise is gone now too Quote
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