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JGowans

Why Do People Hate America?

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MtnGoat said:

"Why then, do we adopt the double standards to this argument as evidenced by the US withdrawing military aid from 50 nations today because they dared to say that they supported an International Court that would not exempt illegal acts by Americans?"

 

What's the problem? Why should we support nations that do not support our postion on the ICC, especially with military aid which could be used to blame us in the ICC in cases involving operations using our aid?

 

If they get our cash, then they should expect to play by our rules, or lose it. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone should expect to continue to get cash while refusing to back our position. If they want to do what they want, they can do so, but without the cash. It's their choice.

 

 

 

Just another day at the office really.

 

 

mabe if their cash is hinging on their unconditional acceptance on U.S. foreign policy, they chouldn't ahve been gettign $$$ in teh first place... this seems like a sticky slope that sounds a lot like big $$$ lobying... i think its even more sticky when applied to international politics...

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MtnGoat said:

"Why then, do we adopt the double standards to this argument as evidenced by the US withdrawing military aid from 50 nations today because they dared to say that they supported an International Court that would not exempt illegal acts by Americans?"

 

What's the problem? Why should we support nations that do not support our postion on the ICC, especially with military aid which could be used to blame us in the ICC in cases involving operations using our aid?

 

If they get our cash, then they should expect to play by our rules, or lose it. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone should expect to continue to get cash while refusing to back our position. If they want to do what they want, they can do so, but without the cash. It's their choice.

 

 

You see MtnGoat, that's what I and others have been talking about all day. This notion that every nation in the world must fall in line with the U.S. for to dissent is to risk losing the carrot or face being beat with a big stick. There's no effort to understand other positions or to concede that the dissenters may be right sometimes.

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MtnGoat said:

"Why then, do we adopt the double standards to this argument as evidenced by the US withdrawing military aid from 50 nations today because they dared to say that they supported an International Court that would not exempt illegal acts by Americans?"

 

What's the problem? Why should we support nations that do not support our postion on the ICC, especially with military aid which could be used to blame us in the ICC in cases involving operations using our aid?

 

If they get our cash, then they should expect to play by our rules, or lose it. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone should expect to continue to get cash while refusing to back our position. If they want to do what they want, they can do so, but without the cash. It's their choice.

 

 

 

 

Dont Mob bosses go to jail for that?

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MtnGoat said:

When did it become evident that there is some standard of "proportionate" use of resources that meant anything at all?

 

of course, we are entitled driving to the corner store to pick up a six pack while others don't have basic amenities. it's our due, we are the chosen people. actually, fairness is not even part of our language.

 

Yeah, everyone's all upset about the mean 'ol US around until they want something done, then it's us that gets to do the heavy lifting.

 

nevermind those that don't want us doing the lifting at all

 

As for an earlier poster listing various and sundry treaties we refuse to sign, most of these instances have to do with lousy treaties based on crappy ideas, or with poorly constituted wording for what could be a decent idea. Kyoto and the ICC are the former, the bioweapon treaty one of the latter.

 

As far as I remember we are not obligated to sign lousy treaties, no matter who else signs them or what lofty titles they carry.

 

personally i find the 'fine' company we keep in not signing said treaties much more telling .... (i.e. every single rogue nation we spend so much time declaring evil)

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Why are we hated.....

 

- Cause we stick our noses in other peoples business

- Cause we assume that others want our help

- Cause we assume our help is what other want

- Cause we are fat

- Cause we are bossy

- Cause our intent is narrow

- Cause another fucking Bush is running the joint

 

 

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MtnHigh said:

Why are we hated.....

 

- Cause we stick our noses in other peoples business

- Cause we assume that others want our help

- Cause we assume our help is what other want

- Cause we are fat

- Cause we are bossy

- Cause our intent is narrow

- Cause another fucking Bush is running the joint

 

HEY!!!!!

I may be fat but im not bossy

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personally i find the 'fine' company we keep in not signing said treaties much more telling .... (i.e. every single rogue nation we spend so much time declaring evil)

 

obviously these 'rogue' nations aren't going to sign any treaty by the western world, so this relationship is kind of ridiculous...

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Fence_Sitter said:

personally i find the 'fine' company we keep in not signing said treaties much more telling .... (i.e. every single rogue nation we spend so much time declaring evil)

 

obviously these 'rogue' nations aren't going to sign any treaty by the western world, so this relationship is kind of ridiculous...

 

So, if the rogue nations lack of penmanship is irrelevant, that leaves the US as the sole dissenter on most human rights and environmental treaties put forth by the international community. While it's certainly their prerogative to dissent, do you see a pattern emerging here? Hmm. If you do, then go and check out the free trade agreements. How many does the U.S. refuse to sign? None?? Isn't that weird?

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JGowans said:

Fence_Sitter said:

personally i find the 'fine' company we keep in not signing said treaties much more telling .... (i.e. every single rogue nation we spend so much time declaring evil)

 

obviously these 'rogue' nations aren't going to sign any treaty by the western world, so this relationship is kind of ridiculous...

 

So, if the rogue nations lack of penmanship is irrelevant, that leaves the US as the sole dissenter on most human rights and environmental treaties put forth by the international community. While it's certainly their prerogative to dissent, do you a pattern emerging here? Hmm. If you do, then go and check out the free trade agreements. How many does the U.S. refuse to sign? None?? Isn't that weird?

 

i am not disagreeing with the premise, just the reasoning... it was intrinsically flawed...

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Fence_Sitter said:i am not disagreeing with the premise, just the reasoning... it was intrinsically flawed...

Sorry FS, I don't see the flaw in the reasoning. It's an interesting point to see that the U.S. is invariably on a list with "The Axis of Evil" when it comes ot those that refuse to sign human rights and environmental treaties. Why is that relationship flawed?

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"This notion that every nation in the world must fall in line with the U.S. for to dissent is to risk losing the carrot or face being beat with a big stick."

 

If this is "just what" you've been talking about, then I must have missed something. Nowhere did I say any nation receiving aid should be beaten with a stick for non support, only that they lose the carrot. Their non support is fully their choice and I have no problem with that.

 

However, if they expect freebies paid for by US to continue coming while they do not aid us in return, there's nothing unreasonable at all about cutting them off.

 

"There's no effort to understand other positions or to concede that the dissenters may be right sometimes. "

 

I don't agree. It seems to me a heck of a lot of people confuse agreement with someone, for "understanding", for one thing. I fully understand the reasons some people have for supporting the ICC, but I still oppose it. I can understand positions I don't agree with all day long, and yet still not agree or want to sign on.

 

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erik said:

green.door.2.jpg

 

you've been taking IMAGE lessons from dwayner, haven't ya??

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JGowans said:

Fence_Sitter said:i am not disagreeing with the premise, just the reasoning... it was intrinsically flawed...

Sorry FS, I don't see the flaw in the reasoning. It's an interesting point to see that the U.S. is invariably on a list with "The Axis of Evil" when it comes ot those that refuse to sign human rights and environmental treaties. Why is that relationship flawed?

 

that the countries he was comparing the U.S. to would never be caught dead signin a treaty prepared by western hands... the real reason is that the U.S. is alone in being the only major western country not to sign these treaties... i am sure that these rougue nations are never even asked... their relationship is more coincidental than anythign else... but it does point out that the U.S. is alienating itself from it only potential allies...

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Greg_W said:

Your premise that this is "our" problem is misguided and removes the responsibility from the individual for their own life and livelihood.

 

Greg, it's easy to preach your self reliance and personal responsibility crap when you were handed everything one needs to succeed in life for free with birth, huh? I'll state again that not everybody was born in this country and automatically granted so many opportunities as you and I were. Don't give me this crap about how you got yourself where you are today. Bullshit. Your success is built upon the backs of millions that came before you and you happen to be able to take advnatage of it because of where you were born. As others have pointed out, you can drink cheap coffee and eat cheap fruit thanks to the undesirables you scoff and turn up your nose at. Wake up. They aren't looking for a free handout, they are looking to improve their lives any way they can and help their families out. That is the definition of the personal responsibility crap you throw around.

 

Next time you see a migrant worker, or any other foreigner working for minimum wage to make your life easier, why don't you have the balls to tell them to their face you want them out of "your" country because they don't deserve to work their asses off for the opportunities you got for free. That would at least show more integretity than hiding your thinly valied racism/anti-foregin sentiments behind an internet message board. thumbs_up.gif

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JoshK said:

Greg, it's easy to preach your self reliance and personal responsibility crap when you were handed everything one needs to succeed in life for free with birth, huh? I'll state again that not everybody was born in this country and automatically granted so many opportunities as you and I were. Don't give me this crap about how you got yourself where you are today. Bullshit. Your success is built upon the backs of millions that came before you and you happen to be able to take advnatage of it because of where you were born. As others have pointed out, you can drink cheap coffee and eat cheap fruit thanks to the undesirables you scoff and turn up your nose at. Wake up. They aren't looking for a free handout, they are looking to improve their lives any way they can and help their families out. That is the definition of the personal responsibility crap you throw around.

 

Next time you see a migrant worker, or any other foreigner working for minimum wage to make your life easier, why don't you have the balls to tell them to their face you want them out of "your" country because they don't deserve to work their asses off for the opportunities you got for free. That would at least show more integretity than hiding your thinly valied racism/anti-foregin sentiments behind an internet message board. thumbs_up.gif

 

Well said...very well said...a little antagonistic, but well stated thumbs_up.gif

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Fence_Sitter said:

obviously these 'rogue' nations aren't going to sign any treaty by the western world, so this relationship is kind of ridiculous...

 

there are plenty of non-western nations signing said treaties. anyhow i don't understand your point. i was only saying that being aligned with the like of n.korea, iran, syria, israel on issues such as landmines, crimes against humanities, disarmaments, etc ... was symptomatic.

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"of course, we are entitled driving to the corner store to pick up a six pack while others don't have basic amenities."

 

Yes, we are.

 

Depending on where you are talking about, their lack of amenities probably has more to do with their living in some form of a socialist nation which does not recognize private property, right to self ownership, or any other number of things more than it means they don't have a coat because I went to get a beer.

 

" it's our due, we are the chosen people."

 

I'd never say we are the "chosen" people, but if that's how you see the world that's your buisness.

 

"Actually, fairness is not even part of our language."

 

Depending on how you define it, I'm not sure it's part of yours. What's "fair" about you spending money to be on the internet when those folks you're so concerned about don't have the basic amenities? If we're using things disproportionately, doesn't that include you, j_b?

 

 

"personally i find the 'fine' company we keep in not signing said treaties much more telling .... (i.e. every single rogue nation we spend so much time declaring evil) "

 

Whatever. I know your predilection for judging people by groups, so I understand this. Not being a believer in group identity, or assigning guilt by association, I don't have this problem.

 

I don't think people are Nazi's because they drink water and Hitler drank water, I don't think that because some drug dealers use banks that all bank users are drug dealers, and I don't care why Iran or whoever won't sign whatever treaty. Why they will or won't is their concern, not yours and certainly not ours. If you're more interested in counting heads and deciding what is just not by content but by association, that's your problem. I'll stick with going by content regardless of who does what else for what other reasons.

 

 

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You never cease to amaze me MtnGoat with your childish conclusions and gauche forrays into explaining behavioral science or the pitfalls of other ideologies. You like to draw people into the proverbial trees to prevent them from seeing the forest and it's so trite and boring.

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JGowans said:

You never cease to amaze me MtnGoat with your childish conclusions and gauche forrays into explaining behavioral science or the pitfalls of other ideologies. You like to draw people into the proverbial trees to prevent them from seeing the forest and it's so trite and boring.

 

Yeah, I think we've all learned our lesson about arguing with MtnGoat before. It's not even worth the effort. He's a confused simpleton.

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JGowans said:

You never cease to amaze me MtnGoat with your childish conclusions and gauche forrays into explaining behavioral science or the pitfalls of other ideologies. You like to draw people into the proverbial trees to prevent them from seeing the forest and it's so trite and boring.

mtn. goat will not answer you directly, as he is a computer program set on 'loop'. You're wasting your breath arguing with him.

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"i was only saying that being aligned with the like of n.korea, iran, syria, israel on issues such as landmines, crimes against humanities, disarmaments, etc ... was symptomatic."

 

So now we're going to work on the principle that "alignment" is signaled by trivialities like signing a treaty for a vast variety of differing reasons? I guess now we can look for the 3 world nations signed onto some popular treaties and by picking out the ones with lousy govts and actions, conclude anyone else who signed is somehow associated with them.

 

It's more sensible to look at the content of a treaty, and each nations reasons for joining or not joining, than to play this game of guilt by association with no attention to content.

 

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MtnGoat said:

"This notion that every nation in the world must fall in line with the U.S. for to dissent is to risk losing the carrot or face being beat with a big stick."

 

If this is "just what" you've been talking about, then I must have missed something. Nowhere did I say any nation receiving aid should be beaten with a stick for non support, only that they lose the carrot. Their non support is fully their choice and I have no problem with that.

 

you seem poorly informed. we don't usually stop at cutting aid .... remember: 'you are with us or against us" .... there is no middle ground here.

 

However, if they expect freebies paid for by US to continue coming while they do not aid us in return, there's nothing unreasonable at all about cutting them off.

 

right goat, we are all morons, we all believe that we are just giving'em freebies rolleyes.gif

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