Permits??

[skyclimb]

I read all this shit about permits. Granted I am relatively new to the area, but i haven't got a permit yet, and haven't had any problems. So what is the deal?? From what i gather Rainier is the most excessively overbearing due to peoples facination with this mountain, but what are they really going to do. It seems to me the only way they could find out you don't have a permit is if you get injured or die!

[catbirdseat]

You could be asked by a ranger to show your permit. Possible, but unlikely, and then only on the two most popular routes.

[Bronco]

I typically don't get permits, I pay enough taxes, parking fee's, entrance fee's.... Say no to the man!

 

But, you should keep in mind some area's have permit systems in place to limit the impact to fragile or previously decimated camps and even if you don't get a permit, you should make an attempt to honor the limits and seek alternatives* if it's a busy time.

 

*Bivy somewhere else.

[freeclimb9]

catbirdseat said:

You could be asked by a ranger to show your permit. Possible, but unlikely, and then only on the two most popular routes.

I got asked while crossing the Winthrop glacier. The two gumby rangers (roped together, leader hiking, second on skis) were returning from a visit to a nearby lake. I didn't have a permit, told them so, and they didn't do anything about it outside of taking down my name and car information. But they did act indignantly and professed that they didn't want "to debate" the permit system (which was odd since I explained that I didn't get one since the office was closed in the wee hours of the morning).

[mattp]

As much as I object to the ideas behind the trailpark passes and the wilderness permit lotteries or the climbing fees at Mount Rainier, I have almost never found it all that difficult to comply with the relevant regulations. It can get pretty spendy some times, and the whole idea of paying to used public lands seems wrong to me, but the issues are, for the most part, political and not practical -- unless you really want to go to a highly popular destination like Camp Schurman or Boston Basin or the Enchantment Lakes on a weekend.

 

Some here will rant about how they can't plan their drive to the N. Cascades in order to be at the ranger station during business hours or whatever, and there is some truth to these kinds of complaints. However, in my 30 years' of climbing in Washington, I can only think of a couple of times when it wasn't relatively easy to get the required permit. I've twice been denied a permit to go the Enchantments, and I've had a ranger at Marblemount insist that a planned bivvy on the N side of the W. Ridge of Forbidden Peak was in the "Boston Basin permit area" and therefore would not be allowed when that permit area was full. I've also had to camp a thousand feet above or below Camp Schurman on Mount Rainier. But for me, the question of whether to go without a permit largely boils down to what kind of a political statement you want to make.

 

Personally, I don't think playing hide and seek with the rangers is going to make a very effective political statement. If you object to permits, I think you should write letters to your congressional representatives, the Park Superintendent, the newspaper, or whatever; you should attend public meetings and speak your mind; you should contribute time and money to organizations who are fighting the fees.

[rbw1966]

When the government plays fair, I will too. Making the purchase of a forest pass a "yes" vote to the fee demonstration project is disingenuous and a mockery of the review process.

 

That being said, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

[skyclimb]

I don't want to make any kind of political statement. I practice low impact camping, and generally stay away from the crowds. I just don't give a shit about their regulations. One of the only true and honest things we have is nature. The idea of having to pay, and reserve this freedom is ludicrious. I see the point, don't get me wrong, I just don't, and won't have a debat with some know it all ranger about my privilages. I have dealt with rangers myself, and found they come one of two ways. Very nice, or on some kind of mission from god that gives them the right to shit on everyone else. Well my mind is made, fuck permits!!!

[cluck]

For the longest time I refused to buy a NW Forest Pass. If there was a pay station at the trailhead, then I'd put in my $10. If not, I wouldn't sweat it. I've poached plenty of trailhead parking lots and campsites w/o any problems with the law.

 

I don't have any problem with the free self-issue permits. I'm more than happy to help the forest service collect usage data. But I'm less willing to fork over my hard earned $$$ to use nature for a couple of hours.

 

Basically if it's convenient, I'll begrudgingly pay the fees. If it's a pain in the ass to comply, then fuck 'em.

[cj001f]

cluck said:I don't have any problem with the free self-issue permits. I'm more than happy to help the forest service collect usage data. But I'm less willing to fork over my hard earned $$$ to use nature for a couple of hours.

 

Basically if it's convenient, I'll begrudgingly pay the fees. If it's a pain in the ass to comply, then fuck 'em.

 

Permits bring up the Climbers Signout required crap that the Tetons used to have - which sucked hard.

[geordie]

Ahh the permit whining has begun. Summer must be just around the summer...

 

Flame on..

[cluck]

I whine about permits YEAR ROUND I'll have you know...

[fleblebleb]

geordie said:

Ahh the permit whining has begun. Summer must be just around the summer...

 

Flame on..

Suck it up big guy

[allison]

 

 

 

[meganerd]

I don't understand how everybody's never had problems with not having permits. I've been asked plenty of times in various areas. When I went solo to Climb Sahale a couple summers ago (my first climb), I ran into a ranger at Cascade Pass (it was a Friday I think). Earlier, I had tried to get a permit for the Sahale Glacier camping area but was told they were all taken, so I got a permit for Pelton Basin instead just to make the ranger at the station happy although I planned to camp at the glacier regardless for two reasons:

1. I had to work the next day and could not camp at

Pelton and still climb the peak.

2. I had gotten the last permit to camp at the glacier

the year before and was COMPLETELY ALONE.

Also, I just had my bivy sack with me and, if the campground actually did look full, I planned on heading up the glacier out of sight to one of the little saddles just below the summit and camping on snow there.

 

On this trip, I decided to be totally bluntly honest with the ranger because I knew I wasn't doing anything wrong. The next day, after camping just below the summit (even though the campground was only half full), and I successfully climbed the peak, I got back to the pass to find that the ranger had been waiting for me for two hours or something. He slapped me with a forty dollar ticket, motherfucking asshole...

 

The worst part was that I successfully argued my case with him and he actually consented that the rule I was breaking wasn't geared toward me and essentially that I wasn't doing anything wrong. He said that he had no choice, that he had to ticket anybody breaking the rules (that's when I casually looked around to see if any supervisers were watching, none seen). He actually suggested that I talk to the district manager in Marblemount. So I did. In fact, he actually made numerous errors writing the ticket including saying I was an adult, which I wasn't. The district ranger told me that they'd had some problems with that ranger before not filling things out correctly and just generally being a weirdo. She then told me that she had to back up the ranger's decision though! WTF!!!!!! So basically the assholes just tossed me back and forth because they knew my defence was correct and they didn't want to stand up to me. I would have gladly "donated" $50 to NCNP if I really thought it was going to something productive. But paying moron rangers like that with my fine money is just not cool.

 

So the moral of this story is: if at all possible lie your ass off if confronted by a ranger. In my situation, I could have easily said that I ended up camping on Boston Sahale Col or even over on the Boston Glacier (hey he wasn't there) which I believe are out of the Sahale zone. There's lots of stuff I could have said and will say next time because they don't know how to implement their policies in a reasonable way. So fuck them.

[hortense]

if you are going to disregard a permit system doing so because you paid your taxes/entrance fees is a lame excuse. your taxes go to the defense budget and what is left over gets filtered through the DOI and then to national parks. you paid to bomb iraq, not to get access to a climbing route. there are a lot of park rangers who are ignorant jackasses on a power trip, but some are just trying to make a living that doesn't involve a desk. protest the permit system because it is bureaucratic or inconvenient, but not because you think you own the land as a taxpaying consumer.

[peacemaker]

It took me a long time realize that “Public” is a misnomer. Yeah, I’ve tried to get around permits of all kinds. Even climbed a few peaks in the Himalaya without permits. A permit (under the circumstances) would have been a waste of time and money. I have even had a confrontation on Cascade Pass with a ranger. Yes, He was a complete idiot. No, I did not have a permit. I’m also an Idiot. First to admit it. The deal is:

Using public ANYTHING is privilege, not a right.

Besides, the permits are reasonable. Do you buy a pass for the Canadian Rockies. Probably. Joshua Tree? Sure. Meganerd, plead stupid next time. It works much better.

 

So what’s the problem? Permits here are small formality, compared to many countries.

 

This topic should realy be in spray.

 

Later-

 

[Tod]

A couple of things I found out about the NCNP rangers last year are:

-The head backcountry ranger reads and posts to this website regularly during the climbing season.

-When you stop and talk with the rangers in the field they are generally pretty cool.

-What they tell you in the field is not what the head ranger will do (i.e., they'll you that you will receive a warning and that you can continue on, but the head ranger will instead send you a ticket).

-The head ranger's image in my mind is that of a cop who is trying to reach her ticket quota.

 

I'm all for what I hope the backcountry permit system is supposed to represent, minimum impact, but the implementation of it is a sham. Now that I've been lied to by the NCNP I wonder why I should be honest with them in the future, permit or not.

 

For high impact areas (Boston Basin, Cascade Pass, etc..), permits are a must and should be followed otherwise the wilderness area that we have every right to explore will be lost for generations. For areas mostly inaccessible to the average hiker/climber and not impacted as such, permits have very little use.

 

As far as the Trail Park Pass Demo Program goes, one thing should be known about this program, it's a demonstration program, this means that it is not law. By purchasing a Trail Park Pass you are demonstrating that you agree with the program and that it is working (essentially voting yes). By sending in your "ticket" to your local congressman (with an attached letter) you are voicing your disapproval to the program. Unless the ticket has been written by the local sheriff, the tickets are not enforceable.

 

I have seen the GAO reports recently, but in the past, most of the money that was collected from the Trail Park Pass Demo Program went into administering it, not to trail and trailhead maintenance. Hopefully this has changed, but I would love to see a recent report on this if anyone knows of one.