JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: you have still failed to address my point about the fact that experience with oppressive governments seems to be the best way to deal with the situation... how else can we know what to expect, but to ask those who have witnessed it first had what works and what doesn't... mabe this isn't theoretical enough, but make sense to me... My frame of reference is somewhat different in that my country continues to be run by an oppressive foreign invader that takes our vast natural resources and distributes the proceeds in an unequal fashion. I still believe in the power of diplomacy though and would never advocate taking up arms against the English. Clearly, everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to retain that opinion whether others adjudge it right or wrong. Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: why is 'rationalization' (or forgetting) of the pain that was endured a good thing... pain is real...if you just want to ignore the pain that these people have been facing, so be ti, but i wont...these people have been fucked for far too long...i dont give a shit what the motives are of Bush...i just want saddam to stop inflicting these savage wounds... albania has just storpped feeling these wounds and so have a lot of other nations in central and eastern europe... why not use their experience to other's advantage rather than writing them of because they haven't 'rationalized' their pain or they aren't 'enlightened'. to assume that you are enlightened and they are not is an amazingly ehtnocentric view... i think if anyone could be enlightened to this world, it would be those that have seen so much...and you (like me) have seen very little... FS, you are merely repeating my point exactly. I stated previously that rationalizing war to the point where it's unimaginable under any circumstances could well be a failing. Please read my previous post for clarification. I can see that you have a considerable amount of passion for the plight of the Albanians and empathise with the similar plight of the Iraqis, and that is admirable. However, the pretense for this war was never about averting a humanitarian disaster. The government has duped the masses into believing that. Also, please don't make assumptions as to what I have and have not seen in my life. You have no idea. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 you are comparing the 21st century english to the 20th century kosovars, soviets, germans, iraquis et al? boy oh boy do you need to get some perspective. you scots have it great... (believe me i am one too)...sure england is sucking of your back, but since when have they gassed 100,000's at once? since when hav ethey killed a man and chargd their families with the cost of the bullet? certanily not in this century.. the western world has a woe is me complex...they say "well england is humping my leg..." but very few on this board knwo real suffering." people who have gone to combat at close quarters still only have a fraction of the pain that is caused by a lifetime of fear, oppression and hatred... how can you dare compare your ' plight' to those of albania, iraq, the baltic region and other oppressed countries without feeling shame at minimizing what these brave poeple have gone through? Quote
allison Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 JG, You are never going to win an argument with this guy! Save your breath. Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: you are comparing the 21st century english to the 20th century kosovars, soviets, germans, iraquis et al? boy oh boy do you need to get some perspective. you scots have it great... (believe me i am one too)...sure england is sucking of your back, but since when have they gassed 100,000's at once? since when hav ethey killed a man and chargd their families with the cost of the bullet? certanily not in this century.. the western world has a woe is me complex...they say "well england is humping my leg..." but very few on this board knwo real suffering." people who have gone to combat at close quarters still only have a fraction of the pain that is caused by a lifetime of fear, oppression and hatred... how can you dare compare your ' plight' to those of albania, iraq, the baltic region and other oppressed countries without feeling shame at minimizing what these brave poeple have gone through? Ok FS, I've tried to be polite but you really have no fucking clue. You are making light of centuries of ethnic cleansing that continues today in Scotland. Sure, they don't shoot us anymore or rape our women or prohibit us from speaking our own language (now that it's dead). No, it's much more insidious than that. I am not your average suburban U.S. kid on his first trip away from mommy and daddy mesmerised by the big bad world. As for what real suffering is...try living in the squalor of a Scottish housing estate where you're part of the underclass long forgotten by privileged bureaucrats of a foreign country. You have no clue mate. No clue. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 you say that liberation is not the pretense to the war...i say who the hell cares? i am not a conservative... i dont want the rep's to save face...i jsut want that murderer saddam out of there... you want buch out, and all he has done is something that he had every right to do under the treaty 'post gulf-war' scenario... yet you dont want saddam out? why not? because liberals tell you that it is not our place? who's place is it? certainly not france or germany... o rtheir neightbors... perhaps... no...i know that our motives were not right, but i couldn't give less of a shit about that... do you think our motives were pure in WW2...hell no... we hated jews just as much as the germans did... but the reason wasn't to protect the jews but rather our own intrests.... it is the same tired discussion...but look at it this way... they are liberated...is it a good thing or a bad thing... did the war do more harm than good? if you really can say yes objectively, then i guess that is your viewpoint, but i honestly cant see how you could... Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: you say that liberation is not the pretense to the war...i say who the hell cares? i am not a conservative... i dont want the rep's to save face...i jsut want that murderer saddam out of there... you want buch out, and all he has done is something that he had every right to do under the treaty 'post gulf-war' scenario... yet you dont want saddam out? why not? because liberals tell you that it is not our place? who's place is it? certainly not france or germany... o rtheir neightbors... perhaps... no...i know that our motives were not right, but i couldn't give less of a shit about that... do you think our motives were pure in WW2...hell no... we hated jews just as much as the germans did... but the reason wasn't to protect the jews but rather our own intrests.... it is the same tired discussion...but look at it this way... they are liberated...is it a good thing or a bad thing... did the war do more harm than good? if you really can say yes objectively, then i guess that is your viewpoint, but i honestly cant see how you could... I'd say that you'd have to be mad not be genuinely happy for the average Iraqi. I am fearful of what the future holds for them. I will always maintain though that the path to this war was filled with deceit and arrogance. Quote
allison Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 I know I am going to regret this...BUT I want Bush out. I want him out bad. He stole the election. It was a complete failure of our system. I have no faith in the integrity of the Supreme Court any more. HOWEVER Do I want Iraq to invade the US to liberate us from Shrub? NO That bit of it is really simple. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 again... you say that you can compare to those that are persecuted throughout the world... i asked if you have seen your father shot aned been charged for the bullets... have you seen your mother raped by government officials... have your friends and family been gassed by the governmetn that is supposed to protect you? NO! your ethnocentrism makes you feel like you have it soo bad...poor you... i know i have it great! nearly every single person in thsi country does and in most westernized countries, but we cant see it...it is not relative... we have it great...we live in teh most cushy nations in the most cuchy time period ever in the history of the world... and you are complaining!?! i knwo what you are talking about, but it is mere child's play compared to the atrocities that i have heard first hand form jews in poland, albainians form kosovo and slavics from former USSR countries...i know...soem bad shit happened to you, but look to the other people in the world that have it so much worse... admit that you have it great...you are writing on a computer...how bad can you have it...you have free time to bicker with a university student who is drunk off his ass after a big party half way aroudn the world... do you have it that bad? i know i dont.... just look objectively... Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 i hope you do regret that...because it is some of the worst logic i have ever heard... read the above post about having it bad allison...i know you like to whine and bitch a lot, but you hav eit good to...even if everyone make fun of you...you still have an awesome life... now if everyday you could think of nothing to live for (and that thought was justified) and you knew that this was the result of ove person wh was persecuting you and your whole country, killing minorities and engaging in random killings...you might think different...i think the word of this morning is perspective... Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 life nowadays is good mate no question. but your frame of reference is the cushy life that your mum and dad worked hard to provide you with. there's tons of folks here in the U.S. that'd say life is shite...homeless, under-educated, mal-nourished. The system is failing them. Similarly, in Scotland, the system fails millions. Now, my mother wasn't shot by the government but there's an underclass that's forgotten, not considered worthy of education or decent housing and drugs, crime, and abject poverty prevails. Is that any less suffering than living in fear of a dictator? You may not think so, but a lifetime of not being able to see beyond your next meal isn't much fun. Glad you're having fun there dude Quote
allison Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Yes, yes I do regret it. I knew I would, and I do. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 in your lil' microcosm, you may have failed to think of the possiblilty that i too was on the fringe... my parents were dirt poor....in fact for a few years i slept in a dresser drawer... but i know, that in the U.S. if you are willing to work hard for yourself, you can acheive what you want...this is nto the just a dream but a reality... my dad did it, and i will do it as well...my parents haven't givent me shit since i was 18..i pay for my private education with my own damn money and i think nothing of it...i wouldn't call my life cushy compared with my cohorts at my private school, but yes that lil' word perspective keeps popping into my head...so that is where i think i will leave it...but i am more than satisfied with my life...i feel taht because i have made the right decisions and worked hard, i can acheive my goals...i think that our goal as citizens of the free world(meaning relatively democratic nations) we should strive to see that we provide other nations with the same benefeits and that they are not incumbered with a greedy dictator who will keep them from acheiving their goals...perhaps this si a bit altruistic, but i think that it is a good starting point... Quote
JGowans Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 That's well put for sure. I wish you well mate, and for sure I'll strive to retain a sense of perspective. It is altruistic, but jaded bastards like me aren't right either. All the best. /jg. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 peace hommes... we'll have to climb when i get bck in may...thanks for the chat... Quote
AlpineK Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: i hope you do regret that...because it is some of the worst logic i have ever heard... read the above post about having it bad allison...i know you like to whine and bitch a lot, but you hav eit good to...even if everyone make fun of you...you still have an awesome life... now if everyday you could think of nothing to live for (and that thought was justified) and you knew that this was the result of ove person wh was persecuting you and your whole country, killing minorities and engaging in random killings...you might think different...i think the word of this morning is perspective... Have another beer, it'll help you argue better. Quote
Off_White Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 AlpineK said:Have another beer, it'll help you argue better. Quote
klenke Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Let's see if I can sum up this thread: Mtnchoad started by saying: "Blah blah blah, blah blah blah." Iian responded with his own "Blah blah" Off White then said, "Blah blah blah blah" Trask then piped in as himself, no pretense. Then, JGowans chimed in with "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" Sphinx, EternalX, and many others rapped at the door with a "blah" or two of their own. before RobBob took over the reins with a "blah blah blah" of his own. This spurred Dru to offer the Canadian perspective: "Blah blah blah" To which j_b retorted "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." Captain Caveman had some fun too. I don't want to repeat it here because....ah, what the hey!, he said, of all things, "Blah blah blah blah blah" Jim then crept up to and then leapt onto the soapbox and swiped the virtual mike to say, "blah blah blah and a blah blah blah" After this it was: Gowans: "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah" Fence Sitter: "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" Gowans: "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" Fence Sitter: "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahh blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" Ad infinatum...until Allison said, "I hate Bush!" Then AlpineK said "beer beer beer" Then Klenke said, "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" The End? Probably not. Quote
Luna Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Jim said: MtnGoat said: "Hey, who put Sadam in power in the first place. Opps - that would be the US CIA" Wrong. That's one of the lefts most cherished urban myths. Saddam placed himself in power, without CIA help, by using his network of assasins and Ba'athists he been working with and cultivating for years. Not everything bad that happens in the world is the result of the CIA or the US! If you can find actual reliable, mainstream proof of your statement beyond "alternate" media, I'll be very, very surprised. Mtn Goat - You need to educate yourself on this one, it's not hard to find. Here's a book I would suggest: Blum, William. The CIA, A Forgotten History: U.S. Global Interventions Since World War 2. London: Zed Books, 1986. 428 pages It documents how the CIA helped Saddam get put in place by the CIA. The US was worried about the commies getting a foothold in the middle east. We saw Saddam as a balance against the growing Islamic movement (democratic mind you) and gave his group weapons and intelligence. As he was grabbing power the CIA, out of the Cario office, gave Saddam a list of 500 opposition group members. Saddam rounded them up and slaughtered them. These are the facts, and they are easy to find. Suggest you read up a bit. Sorry I but I didn't see this until now. Would have saved the pissing contest. But this is old news. It was on Frontline a few weeks ago. Seemed straightforward to me, CIA was in there thick. Helped our boy Saddam and gave him a list of opposition guys to take care of. End of story. Think I'll step back out as advised by Allision and have a Quote
Luna Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 I was too late to make the daily summary. Sniff. Quote
j_b Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 i asked if you have seen your father shot aned been charged for the bullets how a propos since it is exactly what is about to happen you seem genuine enough in your plea for iraqis to be rid of Saddam , let's hope you'll be as vocal in defending their right to self-determination. Quote
AlpineK Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 Shut up j b. I don't care what your argument is just shut up.....bitch Quote
erik Posted April 11, 2003 Posted April 11, 2003 klenke right in there buddy!! dat b sum analysis. you thinkin' pro sports?? Quote
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