Snow Caves on Mount Rainier

[flatland]

mattp said:

Don't automatically assume it has to be a carry over. It certainly can be done that way, but in fact almost everybody I know that climbed Ptarmigan Ridge downclimbed the route.

 

why

[Mike_Gauthier]

Matt, you seem to like downclimbing technical routes. I'm not convinced that this is good advice for most folks. I don't know of anyone who has downclimbed P-Ridge, though I'm sure it has been done. The more common practice however is to carry over and descend a more heavily traveled route.

Hey Flatland, forget the snowcave idea. The weight you save in your pack will be lost in your efforts to dig a snowcave through cascade concrete. Rent a single wall tent (good tip btw, glad to hear they rent them). Personally, I prefer the Integral Design MK tents (my mother is Canadian so I'm heavily biased)... A single wall tent will serve you well. And consider that 2 bivy sacks will weigh almost as much as one single wall tent such as an "I tent." I'd prefer an "I" tent over a bivy sack anyday.

[flatland]

Thanks for the real answer MG. This thread can end now.

[sobo]

I was going to post that very message.

[DPS]

The exertion of summit day on Ptarmagin must be the crux, and since it is a carry over likely hood of success would be greater with out the extra weight . . . Any one have a Bibler for sale?

 

Bullshit, the crux will be the long approach you will have to make at the time of year you are planning. That and dodging the volleys of really large pieces of the mountain that will fall on you when you climb it when you are planning to.

[catbirdseat]

DPS, you're kidding us right?

[mattp]

No, Catbird, I don't think he's kidding. Even on Ptarmigan Ridge, one of the more technical routes on the mountain, there is not that much truly technical climbing. You have to traverse some steep slopes that can be icy, and there may be as much as a half-pitch of rock, I think, but it is not the technical crux that is the real challenge on that route -- at least not for someone who has what I would consider the appropriate skill.

 

Mike is right, of course, that I am speaking agains the great weight of popular opinion and standard wisdom as I continue to advocate at least considering downclimbing routes such as Liberty Ridge and Ptarmigan Ridge. Mike obviously knows more about Mount Rainier than I do, and I don't wish to challenge his authority on the matter, but I seriously think it is a big mistake to climb Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge with the assumption that you are going to carry over -- it causes people to head up there without an adequate tent or even complete bivouac gear and I believe this approach leads people to forge on ahead in the face of bad weather, altitude sickness or unexpected slow progress, or to discard the possibility of a retreat even after someone in their party has gotten injured. I think some of the accident reports that Mike posted the other day support this belief. I have never said that downclimbing these routes is the only way to go, and I am not seeking to discourage someone from going up there with the hope of completing a carry-over, but I have consistently argued that someone who does not think they could downclimb Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge should probably not start up them in the first place.

[erik]

i believe john gill said.

 

"never climb anything, that you cannot downclimb"

 

in a sense that is a great statement and i too think that most people do not practice the skill of down climbing.

 

 

[catbirdseat]

erik said:

i believe john gill said.

 

"never climb anything, that you cannot downclimb"

 

in a sense that is a great statement and i too think that most people do not practice the skill of down climbing.

 

Prophet, I once downclimbed almost the entire upper Lyman Glacier on Chiwawa. I got to be the last guy down, leading from behind, so to speak and lugging all the pickets, screws, etc. they put in. I felt like the "junk guy".

 

Matt, by "crux" on Rainier, I don't think we mean technical crux, but danger crux. The higher you go, the greater the danger, from weather and altitude. I strongly disagree with DPS's assessment.

[iain]

If you cruise 5.13 or M8, you will be just as dead stumbling down the emmons in a whiteout because you left the bivy gear behind or you were too slow and fat, or you can't use a compass, or you don't stay put, or you just forget to keep your digits warm to zip up your coat. Seems like many volcano routes are "hard" based on their objective hazard not climbing "skill" required. Your "skill" on the volcanos is how long and far your mind will let you hang it out there and the survival/fitness you employ to do so, and knowing when it is time to run. Maybe a little luck too. There are exceptions.

[Dru]

mattp said:

No, Catbird, I don't think he's kidding. Even on Ptarmigan Ridge, one of the more technical routes on the mountain, there is not that much truly technical climbing. You have to traverse some steep slopes that can be icy, and there may be as much as a half-pitch of rock, I think, but it is not the technical crux that is the real challenge on that route -- at least not for someone who has what I would consider the appropriate skill.

 

Mike is right, of course, that I am speaking agains the great weight of popular opinion and standard wisdom as I continue to advocate at least considering downclimbing routes such as Liberty Ridge and Ptarmigan Ridge. Mike obviously knows more about Mount Rainier than I do, and I don't wish to challenge his authority on the matter, but I seriously think it is a big mistake to climb Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge with the assumption that you are going to carry over -- it causes people to head up there without an adequate tent or even complete bivouac gear and I believe this approach leads people to forge on ahead in the face of bad weather, altitude sickness or unexpected slow progress, or to discard the possibility of a retreat even after someone in their party has gotten injured. I think some of the accident reports that Mike posted the other day support this belief. I have never said that downclimbing these routes is the only way to go, and I am not seeking to discourage someone from going up there with the hope of completing a carry-over, but I have consistently argued that someone who does not think they could downclimb Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge should probably not start up them in the first place.

 

 

OK I thought about this one for 12 WHOLE HOURS and it still seems to me that the situation is the reverse of what mattp has spouted off. if you are doing a carry over you have your bivi gear with you, and if you get into trouble, you bivy equipped, until you can see to descend your carryover route.

 

if your plan is to downclimb, you leave your bivi gear at camp, and then when weather strikes high up and you cannot downclimb, you have an UNEQUIPPED bivy until you can see where you are again.

 

no?

[iain]

I just accept that bivy gear is taken always (at least enough to survive a really miserable night, which might just be a bivy sack and a puffy jacket) and if there is a planned camp a megamid might be brought. just don't climb with clouds in the forecast!

[DPS]

Matt, by "crux" on Rainier, I don't think we mean technical crux, but danger crux. The higher you go, the greater the danger, from weather and altitude. I strongly disagree with DPS's assessment.

 

Catbird,

 

You haven't climbed Ptarmigan ridge, have you? Altidude is not really a big deal on Rainier, the weather is what it is and believe me, getting brained by a sizeable chunk of rock is plenty dangerous.

[Attitude]

danielpatricksmith said:

Altidude is not really a big deal on Rainier,...

This blanket statement is incorrect. DPS may not get AMS at 14k, but others do. One of the symptoms of AMS is lassitude, you slow down and don't think as clearly. Obviously a problem on a big mountain.

[lummox]

Attitude said:

One of the symptoms of AMS is lassitude, you slow down and don't think as clearly.

fuck. i got ams all the dam time.

[mattp]

Right you are, Drew, that most parties will leave their tent at high camp if they are planning on returning that way so they may in fact have less with them on the summit than they would if they were carring everything over. However, when planning a traverse of the mountain, and particularly when this involves hiking a quarter of the way around the mountain before you even start the climb, the great temptation is to bring as little as possible. I bet that those who plan to downclimb their ascent route on Mount Rainier, on average, bring more camping and storm gear than those who plan a traverse. I bet, too, that they are more likely to find their way back to their high camp when bad weather overtakes them then the carry-over parties are likely to find their way down a completely different route.

 

As to altitude illness, I agree with Attitude that it is a big deal. And with regard this issue, too, I think the carry-over parties are in greater danger because they spend much more time high on the mountain. When I climbed Liberty Ridge with a day pack (which did, by the way, include emergency bivvy gear), I was up and back down to Thumb Rock before any other party that day even made it up to Liberty Cap. And I am no athelete.

 

Mike is right to point out that I haven't exactly acknowedged some of the obvious dangers in downclimbing the Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge -- many people are not as adept as climbing back down as they are in climbing up in the first place, and these descents involve having to run the gauntlet of the rockfall-prone lower slopes twice rather than only once (and, Brian, my friends who have climbed the Ptarmigan Ridge have been unanimous in telling me they were much more scared on the first part of the climb, right out of camp, than they were on the exit gullies or anything else high on the climb).

 

Again, I am not saying nobody should try to complete a carry-over. But their game plan should not rely upon this, and they should carry adequate gear to withstand a storm. Based on the accident history over the years, many people underestimate Liberty Ridge in particular.

[Mike_Gauthier]

matt, i think we're on the same page... there are many climbers who visit the park and are plenty capable enough to down climb technical routes. but as i've seen over the years, not everyone attempting L-Ridge and P-Ridge are skilled enough to do this. to be blunt, many should be building their skills elsewhere before attempting such committing routes. i know these ridges can be “walk ups” for experienced climbers, but its amazing how fast a “walk up” turns into an epic if your tool box is short on skills, good judgment and solid techniques.

yes, a carry over is harder, more time consuming and more likely to subject the climber to AMS, HAPE, HACE... on the other hand, you'd be more prepared if something were to go wrong... and as we know, it isn't always the weather that catches you.

more than anything on rainier, i think that people often overestimate their physical capabilities when attempting the summit. asking about conditions is one thing, but when folks start asking for technical advice, logistical advice, etc, i begin to get nervous. maybe it's me, but if someone is asking these sorts of question, i can’t help but wonder if they should be attempting some other climbs/routes first.

for many climbers around the country, Rainier is a convenient and noted "training" climb and great place to develop skills. this makes sense, but setting ones sites on L-Ridge, or P-Ridge could be dangerous off the couch; as we’ve all seen year, after year, after year.

what am i saying, i wish more of the climbers attempting rainier would train more (physically and technically) before coming. they’d increase their success rate and enjoyment factor, and “maybe” i’d have less rescue work to do.