short draw question

[fern]

only 15 more pages to go. Well done. I am sure we have only skimmed the surface of this extremely important topic.

[freeclimb9]

Write and ask the dude himself: BGvertical@aol.com

[iain]

fern said:

only 15 more pages to go. Well done. I am sure we have only skimmed the surface of this extremely important topic.

I'll try not to distract the issue with any more etymological pudding interjections

[Dru]

2 pages and so far the only takers for the AMGA slam hook are snoboy and daler. Jason Martin must be out bolting in Red Rocks with layton.

 

"I'm not a doctor but i have a medical website right here. Where's my scalpel?"

[Montana_Climber]

If the bolts were put up nearly in a perfectly straight line, the draws would do almost nothing for reducing drag or reducing the chances of a cross-loaded biner. Sewn runners are completely static if they have 3 or more bar tacks in them. I used to work in a production facility for outdoor gear and had the opportunity to test slings, screamers, etc. Since this might bring up another issue, screamers aren't sewn the same way as regular runners and have a "built-in" absorption system. In actuality, the screamers were not very consistent with breaking strengths and ranged anywhere from 150 lbs (body weight) to 800 lbs.

 

If this was a natural route and the guide clipped directly into the cable of a nut would everyone be criticizing the placement just the same?

 

The AMGA also publishes a list of all its certified guides so that a person can check it out if he/she desires. To become an AMGA guide it costs thousands of dollars and requires extensive examinations so not everyone who wants to be a guide will become one. It takes someone dedicated and willing to go through the hassle. I have guided before but never under the guise of being AMGA certified. I am an amateur guide and therefore did not care to spend the money and time in getting professionally certified as a guide. Instead I'm spending the money and time getting professionally certified as an MD so if you need someone to cut you, let me know.

[snoboy]

Montana_Climber said:

If this was a natural route and the guide clipped directly into the cable of a nut would everyone be criticizing the placement just the same?

 

Actually I would criticize it even more. I think the biner on bolt is weird, but probably OK. One biner on a nut is insanoty!!!!!!!!!!

[Montana_Climber]

You know Tom Frost designed his Sentinel nuts with extra long cables so that a runner is not needed. They were hell to place due to the flimsiness of such a long cable. The short ones work great for all around climbing, especially on granite.

 

Picture of long cable

Dimensions

[daler]

depends on the nut placement. I have done this way mor e often then a single biner to a bolt.

[mattp]

Before sport climbing, and before quickdraws came into common use, it used to be standard practice to clip a bolt hanger with two linked carabiners. I believe the reason for this was that the additional link would add some flexibility, but it may also have had to do with the fear that the rope might get pinched between the biner and the rock in the event of a fall when a single 'biner is clipped directly to rope and bolt and the fall comes on that piece. I still clip bolts this way when I run out of quickdraws on a heavily bolted pitch - don't most of you?

 

I doubt you will find anybody advocating the use of a single biner, though, except when setting up a pendum or a retreat.

 

The fact that a guide would do something while climbing with a client that most of us would not do while climbing with a partner is a different topic. When I have taken beginners or relatively less competent climbers on climbs that were well within my comfort zone, I have many times taken shorcuts that I would not take when climbing anywhere near my limit. I don't know why he chose not to use draws because I can see no reason not to use them, but I would certainly feel "safe" leading a 5.4 bolted sport climb using a single biner for each clip. Maybe his client had been dropping the draws all day and he just decided to minimize the number of pieces that might either get lost or damaged by being dropped.

 

[Fejas]

Luna said:

Bob was clearing giving his student a lesson, an advanced lesson. He owns Vertical Adventures I think it's called. The guy's a hot shot. I'm just curious about the clip but haven't heard a reson not to do it this way other than the biner might twist.

 

I've never just clip one biner to a bolt because, there is a issue of leverage, by this i mean if your biner is twisting or just moving around on the bolt, there would be more presure when it bangs aginst the rock, increasing the odds of your biner gate to open... with a draw, the pressure is absorbed by the runner. in aid you do clip directly to a bolt or to your gear, but that is just for the aid, I still use a draw for my safety rope... another reason would be draws allow your rope to extend further away from the wall causing less friction. this may not cause any danger to the climber but it does add to the longevity of your rope... I'm sure the guide is a great and experianced climber, and probably climb more and harder routes than I, but none the less I would not follow his exsample, especaily when guiding another climber...

[TimL]

mattp said:

I still clip bolts this way when I run out of quickdraws on a heavily bolted pitch - don't most of you?

 

I doubt you will find anybody advocating the use of a single biner, though, except when setting up a pendum or a retreat.

 

 

I have a buddy who clips double biners into the bolts especially when he is close to the ground. The same buddy is old school and climbed the Nose and Astroman on nuts and hexes. I think its a generation thing. When I saw him clipping into double biners I was amazed but didn't say anything cause I couldn't see anything wrong with it, just out of the ordinary.

 

The only time I've heard of people using single biners to clip the rope besides pendulums and retreats are when someone is working a hard route and doesn't want to take a longer fall or is close to the ground. If I remember correctly, look at the pictures of Sharma climbing Realization. I think you might notice single biners clipped into the bolt next to the qd.

 

[Dru]

to my way of thinking if you run out of draws but still have lots of extra biners it means you need to buy more draw slings, cheapskate!

 

if you have the 1992 squamish guidebook you'll note in the photo section Joe Turley is leading Local Boys with the 2-biner clip setup. worst of both worlds IMHO. its even less flexible and more likely to unclip, than a single biner.

 

but what do i know i place a quickdraw on everything even cams with sewn slings.

[Luna]

Thanks for the concise reply Fejas. I wouldn't do this myself but was curious. Just a break from my day behind the desk (rare). Interesting some repliers start geting bent about thread. It's cc.com for crying out loud.

[ryland_moore]

I have actually seen this style of sport climbing quite often. You will also see it on a lot of Euro routes that are super steep. The reason it was explained to me why folks clip into a single biner is cause typically they are on over hanging routes that are left up for a long period of time. Due to the break down of materials in sun and general weather, they leave biner there as the draw webbing breaks down over time. I would have no problem climbing just with a biner, if that was all I had. I am not sure what would warrant someone to place just a biner if they had draws available, but I wouldn't look at it like it was a serious issue at all. As for the benefits of a draw in the place, there seem to be few. Many draws like Petzls can be fairly stiff anyways, so a biner camming improperly in a bolt with a draw seems almost as likely.

 

Again, this is straight lined sport climbing and not trad or routes that wander. I'd be more worried about back clipping then falling on just a biner! I confess, I have never actually done this.

[iain]

Dru said:

but what do i know i place a quickdraw on everything even cams with sewn slings.

I know more than a few people who refuse quickdraws on cams, only tripled slings.

[Attitude]

iain said:

I know more than a few people who refuse quickdraws on cams, only tripled slings.

 

Quickdraws are aid.