Action Against a War

[j_b]

Those other regimes with similar practices, we have better relations with.

 

enough said.

[j_b]

I feel like this soap opera never changes.

 

I guess it still hurts.

[iain]

Those other regimes with similar practices, we have better relations with.

indeed, yoda could not have constructed a finer sentence.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Peter_Puget said:

Damn! Can't do that many moves between bolts.

 

!

[Peter_Puget]

Nah Polish Bob will look down on me!

[iain]

Peter_Puget said:

Nah Polish Bob will look down on me!

actually he'd kill you and spit on your grave

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

And, standing above the man's grave, CPB would indeed be looking down on him!

[eternalX]

j_b said:

oh yeah, 1) we impose sanctions that are ultimately responsabe for the death of 100,000's (and keep wanting enforcing them in hte face of common sense),

 

It's amazing he has all this money for his military and none for the people. If you read the articels, you'll see that where the UN actually handles the food giveout program, the infant mortality rates are actually lower. You're not actually suggesting that the goal of the US administration is the death of little kids...are you?

 

 

2) we gear up for war upon a people on the brink of starvation,

 

A war won't be against the civilian population. I'm sure some civilians will be killed, but probably not as many are killed by Sadamn for not supporting his regime for CNN cameras or that die because he is selling the food he gets from the UN

 

3) we supported this same regime for years as we knew all along what it was up to, and

 

This was actually pretty clever for awhile. If you look back, we had two big problems here, Iraq and Iran. The administration at the time figured if it could keep both at war with each other, then they wouldn't bother us. Yea, it's starting to bite us in the ass now, but either then or now, and then we had that whole cold war thing going on.

 

 

Some nice articles on slate

Why Germany Isn't Convinced

 

 

Sinecurity Council

 

I'm not really for a war on Iraq and i don't think it was inevitable awhile back...i think the administration has dug itself into a hole and probably has to fight now to get out. War is inevitable and how long it'll last is anyone's guess. I'm personally a bit concerned because i think a lot of americans will die in the ground fights in the city this time. A regime change just isn't as easy as something like Desert Storm.

 

--eternal

[sexual_chocolate]

I don't think a war is inevitable. Bush is scrambling hard, real hard, on this one.

 

By the way, I see very little talk about what "compliance" would consist of. "They must comply now." we keep hearing, but very little is said about what that might mean.

 

Let the inspections continue. Triple them! Like France said....

[j_b]

You're not actually suggesting that the goal of the US administration is the death of little kids...are you?

 

of course not, what I am saying is whatever the motives, it's not working and innocents are paying for it (actually even if it was working would it justify our sacrificing all these people?). So why don't we back off and try something else since there is no immediate threat.

 

 

A war won't be against the civilian population. I'm sure some civilians will be killed, but probably not as many are killed by Sadamn for not supporting his regime for CNN cameras or that die because he is selling the food he gets from the UN

 

you are mistaken. Remember the population is already on the brink of disaster. The UN is bracing for a humanitarian crisis in case of war. According to scenarios there will up to 100,000's death (~250,000 in the 1st gulf war), countless refugees, etc ...

 

This was actually pretty clever for awhile. If you look back, we had two big problems here, Iraq and Iran. The administration at the time figured if it could keep both at war with each other, then they wouldn't bother us. Yea, it's starting to bite us in the ass now, but either then or now, and then we had that whole cold war thing going on.

 

which points to our lack of interest in what's best for the people of that region.

[MtnGoat]

j_b said:

Those other regimes with similar practices, we have better relations with.

 

enough said.

 

So you A) oppose relationships of any kind with regimes having practices you don't like or B) think we should bomb them too or c) think we should work with who can?

 

It's nice and easy to sit way up on that tower and deplore all govts you don't like. Who doesn't? But you've made the case diplomacy is called for, and in most instances, I agree, so what I see here is convenient on the basis you can point to relations elsewhere where we can work with them without going to war, and yet you find fault with this as well.

[eternalX]

A war won't be against the civilian population. I'm sure some civilians will be killed, but probably not as many are killed by Sadamn for not supporting his regime for CNN cameras or that die because he is selling the food he gets from the UN

 

you are mistaken. Remember the population is already on the brink of disaster. The UN is bracing for a humanitarian crisis in case of war. According to scenarios there will up to 100,000's death (~250,000 in the 1st gulf war), countless refugees, etc ...

 

How am i mistaken? You don't ever actually say how.

It's on the brink of disaster because of Sadamn. Remember that Iraq should be one of the wealthiest nations on the planet but he fucked them by taking over Kuwait. Now, with the sanctions in place, he's still diverting money to his army. You quote one set of numbers like they are the fact. They are estimates, and only one set of them. The UN disagrees with you and so does Iraq, who states somewhere closer to 1.6 million people are dead because of sanctions.

 

This was actually pretty clever for awhile. If you look back, we had two big problems here, Iraq and Iran. The administration at the time figured if it could keep both at war with each other, then they wouldn't bother us. Yea, it's starting to bite us in the ass now, but either then or now, and then we had that whole cold war thing going on.

 

which points to our lack of interest in what's best for the people of that region.

 

Well duh, the US cares about itself firstly (and so do you i'm sure). I never made the claim that we didn't. However, the US has a pretty good history of standing up against oppresion. I don't see any other country that has anything close to our history. I don't see France running around protecting people. Even when Yugoslavia was being torn about and thousands murdered, Europe didn't do shit. Clinton stayed out for a long time and then got blasted for it. You're fucked if you do, fucked if you don't.

 

--eternalX

 

[eternalX]

sexual_chocolate said:

I don't think a war is inevitable. Bush is scrambling hard, real hard, on this one.

 

By the way, I see very little talk about what "compliance" would consist of. "They must comply now." we keep hearing, but very little is said about what that might mean.

 

Let the inspections continue. Triple them! Like France said....

 

Well for one, they need to explain what they did what they did with their chemical weapons. similar to when a person gets audited, it's not up to the IRS to find where you hid your money, it's up to you to explain what you did with it and prove it.

 

It'd also be helpful that they didn't get caught with weapons they aren't suppose to have and also covering up the evidence.

 

If you read that slate article, you'll understand why inspections aren't going to help. Even Hans Blix said he doesn't need any more inspectors. What he needs is Iraq to comply by providing information on how and where they disposed of these weapons. We know they had it at one point because we gave it to them.

 

--eternal

[j_b]

It's on the brink of disaster because of Sadamn

 

We want Saddam to go and he does not want to go. It has been clear for a while that the iraqi people were caught in the middle and neither side cares to the point of trying something different. The "collateral damage" appears acceptable to all parties involved.

 

he's still diverting money to his army

 

any trustworthy references? my understanding is much (all?) of the money goes to a UN account and stuff makes its way there upon approval. Though I would not put it past him if he could.

 

You quote one set of numbers like they are the fact. They are estimates, and only one set of them. The UN disagrees with you and so does Iraq, who states somewhere closer to 1.6 million people are dead because of sanctions.

 

you are right 350,000's children under 5 is the most conservative estimate. I am not sure what this changes though.

 

Well duh, the US cares about itself firstly (and so do you i'm sure). I never made the claim that we didn't

 

that's all I was saying, let's stop pretending we are going in for humanitarian reasons.

 

 

[Rodchester]

it's about having some semblance of a fair procedure for developing rules, without ONE GODDAMN COUNTRY having all the say.

 

You mean France?

[Greg_W]

sexual_chocolate said:

Look I don't know who is in violation of the UN more than Iraq. The truth is that SOME ONE HAS TO MAKE THE RULES> if not then it becomes the definition of Anarchey.

 

i get what you are saying, that it SHOULD be fair. But it isn't, It won't ever be. who ever told you life was going to be fair???

 

 

Muffy you wanker! (sprayer)

 

Some of the stuff you say, I just cannot believe. "Gee life isn't fair so just get over it ok and let (someone) make all the rules and be empiric and peremptory about it cuz that's just the way life is."

 

Is this the drivel you teach your kids? Teach your kids that we CAN make a difference, you indifferent (muffy). I'd love to see the world (hate to see) if everyone had your attitude:

"Gee,slavery's not THAT bad. You get used to it, and you usually get fed."

 

"Hey, I don't want to vote anyway. My place is in the kitchen (Really? Yours too, Muffy?)."

 

"Hey, WWI was kinda bad, WWII too, but trying to work together through an international coalition for future WW prevention seems like a BAD IDEA to me."

 

"I don't CARE if you're not guilty. You STILL get the death penalty. Life Isn't Fair. What kind of an upstart are you, anyways? "

 

"Ahh gee mom (muffy), how come the bully always gets his way on the playground? I thought might wasn't supposed to make right?"

"Shut up kid. I'm just a hypocritical hippy who once was kinda dippy. Now I'm sane, just playing the Republican's game."

 

 

 

Sadness takes the form of water, nourishes new growth. What pain for new green.

I cannot let go. Must let go.

Must let go.

 

Thanks, Sexual Chocolate, for reminding me why I think your a fucking idiot.

[eternalX]

you are right 350,000's children under 5 is the most conservative estimate. I am not sure what this changes though.

 

No it isn't. The administration and the UN would disagree with those numbers. I was only trying to show that those numbers are highly speculative and subjective. The US stopped the food for oil program after they found Iraq to be illegally selling the food for money and military equipment. They were even using banks in the US to do the whole thing. The food never even made it to Iraq i don't believe. It was a pretty big scam that was widely reported a few years back. I know that France still participates in it...which is maybe why they don't want the war to happen. Cheaper oil for them. If we could actually just give all of our excess wheat for their oil, that'd be quite a deal!

 

--eternal

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Greg_W said:

sexual_chocolate said:

Look I don't know who is in violation of the UN more than Iraq. The truth is that SOME ONE HAS TO MAKE THE RULES> if not then it becomes the definition of Anarchey.

 

i get what you are saying, that it SHOULD be fair. But it isn't, It won't ever be. who ever told you life was going to be fair???

 

 

Muffy you wanker! (sprayer)

 

Some of the stuff you say, I just cannot believe. "Gee life isn't fair so just get over it ok and let (someone) make all the rules and be empiric and peremptory about it cuz that's just the way life is."

 

Is this the drivel you teach your kids? Teach your kids that we CAN make a difference, you indifferent (muffy). I'd love to see the world (hate to see) if everyone had your attitude:

"Gee,slavery's not THAT bad. You get used to it, and you usually get fed."

 

"Hey, I don't want to vote anyway. My place is in the kitchen (Really? Yours too, Muffy?)."

 

"Hey, WWI was kinda bad, WWII too, but trying to work together through an international coalition for future WW prevention seems like a BAD IDEA to me."

 

"I don't CARE if you're not guilty. You STILL get the death penalty. Life Isn't Fair. What kind of an upstart are you, anyways? "

 

"Ahh gee mom (muffy), how come the bully always gets his way on the playground? I thought might wasn't supposed to make right?"

"Shut up kid. I'm just a hypocritical hippy who once was kinda dippy. Now I'm sane, just playing the Republican's game."

 

 

 

Sadness takes the form of water, nourishes new growth. What pain for new green.

I cannot let go. Must let go.

Must let go.

 

Thanks, Sexual Chocolate, for reminding me why I think your a fucking idiot.

 

Greg, why so snappy? Tell me, please.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

sexual_chocolate said:

 

 

Greg, why so snappy? Tell me, please.

 

He gets bitchy when he doesn't get his juice box in the morning. Kids!

 

[eternalX]

on a lighter note

 

i love the onion.

 

--eternal

[sexual_chocolate]

Thanks , Flash. I was getting upset, thinking he didn't like me anymore.

[mikeadam]

The liberal left continues to display itself as a brilliant flower, visible as the decay of our culture.

[JayB]

Hussein Emboldened by Antiwar Sentiment

Iraq Has Failed to Follow Through on Cooperation, Inspectors Say

 

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran

Washington Post Foreign Service

Wednesday, February 19, 2003; 7:01 PM

 

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Feb. 19 -- President Saddam Hussein's government, apparently emboldened by antiwar sentiment at the U.N. Security Council and in worldwide street protests, has not followed through on its promises of increased cooperation with U.N. arms inspectors, according to inspectors in Iraq....