jon Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 The daisy chain arguement got me thinking about this. I've been using a Reverso for a while now and I really like it. It gives really nice smooth rappels, good action on the belay, and being able to belay from the achor easily with the locking feature kicks ass for rope management. The only can only think of one drawback though, which is kind of a trade of inconvenience for safety is if you are belaying from the anchor and for some unforseen reason the follower has an accident and you need to lower them. With the rope weighted I'd imagine that it would be a little hard to get any action out of the Reverso with out cranking down hard on the free biner, and even so I'm not sure how much you'd get. Has anyone played around with this? Did I not read the instructions carefully enough? If you got in this situation how would you set up a system to lower your partner from where your at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Jon, The best thing you can do is clip a sling to the weighted biner, then take the sling through the anchor and pull down on it. This should release the tension on the weighted biner. Then you can lower, and let go of the sling if you want to stop 'em. Make sense?? I know it sounds a little contrived, but it's the best that the Petzl Rep. could come up with as a solution to this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted October 12, 2001 Author Share Posted October 12, 2001 I figured you or someone had talked to the Petzl rep about this. Obviously the device can't be perfect, it surely is the best I've used. Hitching a sling to the free biner like you described was one of the things I had though of, I just haven't tried this and wasn't sure how much weight was required to do this, luckily I'm pretty fat so I just have to use a little body weight The other thing I though of is a bit crazy but if you had the gear and were desperate could work, which is to set up a prussik on the rope going down to the follower with a load releasing hitch, load the prussik unloading the Reverso like you described and switch the device to a normal belay, then reload the Reverso using the load releasing hitch. Kind of complicated but I guess it's something to think about in case you get in real big jam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Take a short prussik, wrap loaded end of rope, clip to anchor point and lower load onto prussik to anchor. This will free up Reverso and give you rope slack to rig proper lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted October 12, 2001 Author Share Posted October 12, 2001 Right Beck, that's what I said above, but after you load your prussik you have to be able to unload it somehow. Thats where the load releasing hitch comes in which is on the prussik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishstick Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Set up a block and tackle running from the carabiner that the rope runs over, to the station (min distance 10 inches). With two to three loops of cordelette running in the block, a firm pull with your free hand releases the load. Block and tackles also work to release the load on gi-gi's. GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jon: I figured you or someone had talked to the Petzl rep about this. Obviously the device can't be perfect, it surely is the best I've used. Hitching a sling to the free biner like you described was one of the things I had though of, I just haven't tried this and wasn't sure how much weight was required to do this, luckily I'm pretty fat so I just have to use a little body weight The other thing I though of is a bit crazy but if you had the gear and were desperate could work, which is to set up a prussik on the rope going down to the follower with a load releasing hitch, load the prussik unloading the Reverso like you described and switch the device to a normal belay, then reload the Reverso using the load releasing hitch. Kind of complicated but I guess it's something to think about in case you get in real big jam. Keep in mind that similar belay devices(gigi) have the same problem. But you don't need a whole lot of force to release the biner enough to let the rope slide through. You can do it with one arm, no body weight needed. Allthough, I was lowering my girlfreind who only weighs about 120. It might be a different story if you were lowering Caveman!!!! In that case you could take the sing through another biner and do a mini-block and tackle as fishstick mentions. Of course you could allways escape the belay device entirely, but that is more than I perfer to get into on this board. Just remember to tie a back-up knot to the anchor if you choose to disassemble the device! Thanks, Matt [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-12-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_C Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 I think, not that I have used a reverso in this situation, so someone else may have a different experience, that if you put the reverso on the anchor and are belaying a second on a traverse that the autolock feature may not work?? I have only used the reverso in a gym, so I may be wrong. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Originally posted by Don Gonthier: Seems like a lot of hassle when the old method (a munter hitch) seemed to work fine for belaying from a fixed anchor. It seems to me that the folks at Petzl came up with a nice design to solve a problem that most American climbers would never run into. I mean how often does anyone here belay off the anchor from above? Don't get me wrong, I don't think its a bad way to go but most folks I know learned to belay off the harness so you could limit force on the anchor and redirect belays. Whats wrong with using a regular munter hitch? Yeah, they twist the rope but realy only when you are lowering or rappeling with it and this device won't allow for that anyway. Â Don, Two things: One, redirecting the rope from your harness to the anchor doubles the weight on the anchor. Belayer+climber= alot of weight. Belaying straight off the anchor with the Reverso (hands free locking) allows you to move around, dig into your pack, rerack, take a piss, whatever. When the anchor is convienient (in a good position), belaying off the anchor is awsome! Second, ever try to belay two iced up chords at once using munter-hitches on one biner? It ain't so easy. Otherwise I'd agree with you. [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-12-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishstick Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 I agree with Don that the munter is a very suitable method of belaying from an anchor with less expense and weight. The real joy of the mechanical systems however is their ability to deal with two ropes and auto lock. While belaying the second you can re-fuel, deal with rope stacking or adjust your clothing system. They just seem to make things go a bit more smoothly. Last weekend I tried a sample German device called a TRE. It's essentially a spring loaded plaquette that doesn't require an extra carabiner. One belays the leader, a second, raps or lowers all from the same rope configuration. It also auto-locks in all modes (although it auto-locks both ropes). At 155 grams it's heavy, but it has a great deal of potential. Better in my mind than the three other options. Unsure when they'll be selling them. GB Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_C Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Does the fact that no one answered my question about protecting traverses mean that no one likes me (snif) or does no one know the answer? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishstick Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 If the reverso isn't attached directly to a hardpoint, it should work fine. GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Yeah, as long as it has the ability to move (ie. self equalizing anchor), I don't see why it wouldn't lock. A pull is a pull right. Mabye you could explain your theoretical situation a little bit more??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted October 12, 2001 Author Share Posted October 12, 2001 Who me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Gonthier Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Bone, thanks for the instruction but I don't run the belay rope through tha anchor anyway. Generaly I tie the rope or clip a daisy to the anchor and sit down and belay directly off the harness. This way the climber has to move me before the anchor is loaded at all. Even with the belay rope running through the anchor while belaying a second, the forces will be pretty small, maybe 2 or 3 times body weight. If your anchor can't handle this you got other problems, after all, every toprope anchor doubles the force of the falling climber. Again the self locking feature only works when belaying a second, when you belay a leader you use it like a ATC or similiar device which I and almost every other american climber all ready has. Also how does learning another new device make it easier for begginers to move outdoors when learning to belay with almost any device take a couple hours and most work equaly well. It seems to me kind of the opposite, another device to remember, more chances to mess it up. My original point was not that the device is bad or not useful but, that Petzl was trying create a demand for equipement that is not usful to most climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Gonthier Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Seems like a lot of hassle when the old method (a munter hitch) seemed to work fine for belaying from a fixed anchor. It seems to me that the folks at Petzl came up with a nice design to solve a problem that most American climbers would never run into. I mean how often does anyone here belay off the anchor from above? Don't get me wrong, I don't think its a bad way to go but most folks I know learned to belay off the harness so you could limit force on the anchor and redirect belays. Whats wrong with using a regular munter hitch? Yeah, they twist the rope but realy only when you are lowering or rappeling with it and this device won't allow for that anyway. So what the heck is this thing for? The Reverso would be awesome if you were guiding a couple of people on moderate terraine in the mountains. Think about it. The usual technique is for the guide to lead on doubles with each rope tied to one client. At the anchor the guide belays each rope with a munter hitch directly to the anchor and both clients climb at the same time maybe a few feet apart. It saves a lot of time and on moderate climbing its pretty safe. The only draw back is if one client falls the guide tends to ignore the other clients belay. This is where the automatic locking feature on the Reverso would come in handy and on a 10 pitch 5.2 nobodies getting lowered to the ground, you know what I mean. This method is used quite a bit in Europe and I've used it a few times myself. Look at page 230 in Selected Climbs in the Cascades and imagine what the anchor setup looks like. Petzl seems to be a good company but it seems to me the marketing of this is kind of suspect. In the situation you mention above where your partner is hanging, the Reverso actualy puts the climber in more danger. Setting up a system to take weight off the belay is not always simple and easy and deffinitly increases the danger far more than simply lowering someone with a munter. So you can go pay the 21.00 dollars for something that works great for somthing you will never do and works OK for what you actually do most of the time and might cause an epic, or you can stick with what your doing for free. I know what I'll be doing with my cash.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 I believe one of the reasons Petzl introduced the Reverso was to accomodate and encourage belaying off the anchors for people unfamiliar with a munter hitch and removing the belayer from the anchor "chain" setup; also, to assist gym climbers to make the transition to cragging and outdoor climbing safer...it is a way SAFER device than a munter hitch,inasmuch as safety can be inherent in the design of a belay device... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Tom Hargis taught me a trick to deal with releasing the load from a loaded gi-gi which should work for the reverso as well. The other answers given calls for releasing the weight off the bar biber. (the rope goes around this biner in both the reverso and gi-gi) Tom showed me a way to lever the device to make it horizontal, then it becomes a stitch plate and you can lower like normal. Take a sling and girth hitch it to the lower hole on the gi-gi. For the reverso, girth hitch longer metal loop. (the one clipped into the biner when rappelling) Take the sling and pass it up through a biner in the anchor somewhere and clip it into the harness. Lean back and lever the device horizontal. Keep a grip on the brake hand and lower. I've done it on the gi-gi but not the reverso. To feed out slack, I've moved the device horizontal by hand to pull out as much slack as needed. These devices have an advantage if ever you need to lift a partner up a climb. I've had to do this but I doubt that you all will ever need to do this. Like rescue skills, a good thing to know. While belaying off the anchor with either the gi-gi or reverso, put small prussick on loaded end of rope. Put a biner on this prussik and it will become a weak pulley. Take unloaded end of rope and clip it in that pulley biner. Now you have a inefficient 3:1 pulley system. (probably a 2.5:1) It works good for when partners fall off on a steep climb and can't touch the rock to get going again. Or falling early on the second pitch of canary. I wish I could take credit for this but Tom taught me this too. Props to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 reply to Don's message "petzl is creating a demand for a peice of equipment that is not usefull for most climbers" Was someone creating a demand when tubular belay devices came out? Figure eight devices where working fine right? Gear and techniques evolve with time. Belaying off the anchor is a smart thing for multiple reasons such as it allows one to perform multiple tasks while safely belaying. (thereby moving faster) Of course this device is not good for anchors that are less than ideal (like snow anchors) where having the belayer's stance part of the anchor adds strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CascadeClimber Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 There has been a lot of talk about these on several boards (mtncommunity, trailspace, rec.climbing) recently. The best explanation that I have seen for lowering a second is here: http://www.usmga.net/guidelines/guidelinesreverso.htm I like to belay from an overhead anchor on ice; it reduces the load on the anchor by about 50% versus a harness belay redirected through the anchor. -Loren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharmabum Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Hey Lamebone, if I ever got up to the anchor on a route that I thought you were belaying me on, and found you digging in your pack or taking a piss, I would shove my arm up your ass and speak to you with your own penis-sock puppet. I don't care what device you're using, you'd better keep your hands on the belay. I looked up the afforementioned mga post, what a pain in the ass. What was that, a diagram for sailboat rigging? Nothing I like better than carrying two cordelettes, six locking biners, and two belay devices on the off chance that my partner will have to lower or I'll forget how to tie a munter hitch. Also, why someone would be "unfamiliar" with the munter, but remember all that other crap is beyond me. Don is correct. Petzl is making a device that about 2% of the market could really use or need. The people who are buying that are people who want to be climbing, they're stuck at work, they're thinking about it, can't go, stop off at REI or one of the "cooler" climbing shops, and buy the device as a frustrated reaction to being able to blow $20 easier than they can get out climbing. I know, I worked at a climbing store, and I've been the frustrated consumer. Next time you're driving in to work, making the climbing wish list, think about it. Do you really want those new cams, or rope, or do is what you REALLY want to lead at a higher grade? Climb a specific peak? Do a certain route? I used to cook up these wish lists, read the mags, post on the boards, etc. Then I realized that what I really wanted to do was climb. I have been happier since I started spending my money on gas (not redundant gear) and my time on planning and doing new climbs ( not mentally masturbating on the boards or reading the comps section of the mags). No offense, I'm typin with a smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharmabum Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 I shouldn't have said Lamebone, that was inappropriate, I don't even know you. It came off more dickish than I meant. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoky_Mcpot Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Dharma, Uh yeah you're about 100% right. Way to nail it on the head. I had a similar revelation. We met once at Jantzen Beach earlier this summer. Climb on... Spray: Disengaged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Uh, is Darhma right about sitting in front of his computer on a weekend mentally masturbating about climbing? Or about being frustrated and spewing vile invective at other well structured posts on this thread? (I'm working, don't even own one of this infernal time wasters, but it's on company time so...) whoops, this thread's degenerating quick!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Yep, I agree totally. It seems like there is always something else that you "need." Finally this year I think I am spending more money on travel than gear. And that's quite a bit since I've bought over 20 cams this year. I'm pathetic really. Next month I'll be living out of my car to support my climbing habit. Earlier this year I decided that in order to further my climbing I was going to have to travel and climb alot more. That meant making more money or cutting expenses. I don't see myself making more money unless I work more which would entail less climbing. Already a miser, I decided the rent check had to be sacrificed. I am a little scared, my family thinks I am crazy, and I hope this all works out. Sorry about the dribble. Anyone want to climb tomorrow in the portland area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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