num1mc Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) While the 9x19mm and .45 ACP are acknowledged short range man stoppers with appropriate ammunition, they are far less useful for stopping a rutting bull moose or large predators. Actually, "stopping power" is an unrealistic concept when considering handguns for protection against large animals. It takes something like a .338 Magnum rifle to generate sufficient stopping power with torso hits on a big bear or bull moose and even a .454 Casull revolver doesn't come close to that. Relatively fat, short, quick expanding bullets along the lines of the 9mm/115 grain, .357/125 grain and .45/200 grain JHPs provide good stopping power against relatively flimsy human beings, especially in an urban setting where excessive penetration is a problem. However, they are at a disadvantage against large animals, where deep penetration through thick fur and hide, heavy muscles and large bones is the primary requirement. With a handgun, you must have adequate penetration to reach and disrupt the central nervous system, 'cause you're not gonna blow the socks off a big animal with a center of mass hit. Bears, bull moose and big cats are much stronger and tougher than human beings. It should be obvious that a longer, thinner bullet should penetrate deeper than a shorter, fatter bullet. Sectional density (SD) is the ratio of a bullet's weight in pounds to the square of its diameter in inches. Given the same bullet construction and other factors being equal, the bullet with the greater sectional density will penetrate deeper. To maximize penetration, heavy for caliber bullets should be chosen for protection in the field, which would suggest 147 grain in 9mm, 230 grain in .45 Auto and 158 or 180 grain in .357 Mag. Here are the SD numbers. .357 Mag, 158 grain: SD .177 .357 Mag, 180 grain: SD .202 9x19mm, 147 grain: SD .167 .45 ACP, 230 grain: SD .162 The inferior sectional density of the 9mm and .45 ACP bullets is obvious. The 147 grain 9mm is somewhat better than the 230 grain .45, but the 158 and 180 grain .357 bullets are substantially better than either of the auto pistol bullets. When it comes to the critical factor of penetration, the .357 easily wins the comparison. Kinetic Energy Of course, when comparing the .45 ACP, 9x19mm and .357 Magnum, especially downrange, an important factor that is not equal is kinetic energy. Energy powers penetration (and also bullet expansion). Here are the energy figures, again from the Hornady ballistic tables. .357 Mag, 158 gr. XTP at 1250 fps MV: 548 ft. lbs. ME, 464 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 404 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 327 ft. lbs. at 200 yards .357 Mag, 180 gr. XTP at 1150 fps MV: 528 ft. lbs. ME, 466 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 420 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 354 ft. lbs. at 200 yards 9x19mm, 147 gr. XTP at 1000 fps MV: 326 ft. lbs. ME, 298 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 275 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 238 ft. lbs. at 200 yards .45 ACP, 230 gr. XTP at 850 fps MV: 369 ft. lbs. ME, 342 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 318 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 277 ft. lbs. at 200 yards Once again, the .357 has a clear and substantial advantage from the muzzle to 200 yards with either 158 or 180 grain bullets. Edited July 17, 2017 by num1mc Quote
num1mc Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 Concealed carry is legal for any non prohibited individual in NCNP while hiking and climbing, even without a CCP Quote
JasonG Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 Gratitude and respect to the NCNP Climbing Rangers! You're still not gonna get a permit to Boston Basin this weekend. :kisss: Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 Gratitude and respect to the NCNP Climbing Rangers! You're still not gonna get a permit to Boston Basin this weekend. :kisss: 6 permits, party size 1-12. Could be 6 people, could be 72. When will the NCNP have a *sane* Boston Basin permit policy -limiting # of people, not parties? And when will they stop giving guide services the ability to book permits in advance of the general public? Why does paying a franchise fee confer more access rights for public land? Quote
therunningdog Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 Just got back from doing the NR yesterday. There is now fresh purple tat and a locking biner on the summit block for the east ledges rap descent. I believe this was recently added by NCNP rangers. What a great route! Quote
DPS Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 I believe this was recently added by NCNP rangers. What makes you think that? They seem to be in the business of removing anchors. They pulled the bolted descent route and cleaned all of the anchors from the West Ridge. Hard to imagine them adding anchors. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 I believe this was recently added by NCNP rangers. What makes you think that? They seem to be in the business of removing anchors. They pulled the bolted descent route and cleaned all of the anchors from the West Ridge. Hard to imagine them adding anchors. Yep. Unless he meant they were up there climbing and having fun, taking up a Boston Basin permit for themselves in the process Quote
JasonG Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 Normally I'd think you are correct, but the dog has inside information. Quote
willithewanderer Posted July 25, 2017 Posted July 25, 2017 North Ridge climb July 21-24 a success. Longer climb day then anticipated, should have done more running belays... Quote
goatboy Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 July 21-24? If you don't mind sharing, what was your itinerary (i.e. where did you camp each of those 3 nights?) I am having a hard time imagining an itinerary that spends 4 days and 3 nights, so just curious how you broke up the hiking to climbing to camping schedule. Good work on a great climb! Quote
ursaeagle Posted August 2, 2017 Posted August 2, 2017 The moats appear to be melting out at this point (at least as of this past weekend!) Both getting onto the Boston from the col just to the right of Sharkfin (with the snow gully then crap gully approach), then getting off the glacier to the upper col. There are 4 bivy sites at the upper col, and access to snow to melt for water was fairly easy. We were able to bypass both snow patches on the left without snow travel (well, three steps in the lower snow patch with our rock shoes on). That said, the 5.6 "crux" right at the start of the ridge was by no means the hardest part, and the upper part of the ridge above the upper snowfield did not appear to be 5.0. "Sketchy Bullshit" indeed! Quote
wfinley Posted August 2, 2017 Posted August 2, 2017 The moats appear to be melting out at this point (at least as of this past weekend!) Both getting onto the Boston from the col just to the right of Sharkfin (with the snow gully then crap gully approach), then getting off the glacier to the upper col. There are 4 bivy sites at the upper col, and access to snow to melt for water was fairly easy. We were able to bypass both snow patches on the left without snow travel (well, three steps in the lower snow patch with our rock shoes on). That said, the 5.6 "crux" right at the start of the ridge was by no means the hardest part, and the upper part of the ridge above the upper snowfield did not appear to be 5.0. "Sketchy Bullshit" indeed! ursaeagle... I believe these pix are of you. One looking down at you from the summit and one from the start of your "not an epic" descent. Quote
ursaeagle Posted August 2, 2017 Posted August 2, 2017 Yup, that would be us. Thanks for the pics! Quote
willithewanderer Posted August 3, 2017 Posted August 3, 2017 trip dates actually 22 - 24. Spent 1 night at bivy notch and 1 on descent on west ridge side after 2nd rappel with night fall and cooler temps coming in...most uncomfortable bivy ever, but still epic. Quote
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