rbw1966

I apologize in advance if I am in the wrong forum. I'm doing some research on accident statistics on various peaks. I'm specifically looking for information on Kilimanjaro. Anyone know of any source information for climbing-related statistics on this peak? Gracias

From rec.climbing:Test Report - Sewn Slings on Wire Stoppers - Suicidal or Acceptable Tom Jones - tom@jrat.com, www.canyoneeringusa.com Thanks for Black Diamond for providing materials, information andtesting facilities for this test. All conclusions are my own, anddo not represent the opinion of Black Diamond Equipment LTD. © 2002 Nolan Jones. Permission is granted to reproduce only init's entirety, including this copyright notice. Introduction: The question comes up from time to time - how strong is a slingthrown through a wired stopper? Some say - really weak - never doit. Some say - it's not so bad. So I decided to run some testsand find out. Black Diamond Wired Stoppers come with 3 sizes of cable: #s 1 and2 use 1/16" 7x7 galvanized cable; #s 3, 4 and 5 use 3/32" 7x19galvanized cable; and larger sizes use 1/8" 7x19 galvanized cable.I concentrated on the larger two sizes. BD was kind enough to makeup samples of just the swaged cables. Black Diamond Nylon 11/16" or 18mm runners are similar to slingsin common use among climbers. These are probably a little strongerthan average, and were chosen for testing largely because I had abunch of new ones from the same batch that I could use. All resultsshould be scaled down based on the rated strength of the runnersyou are using. WARNING: evaluation of these tests requires experience and judgment.I do not recommend using slings on wires - but for the expertclimber it MIGHT be a reasonable alternative IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES. The Tests: Of course, we can't test every combination. So here's what Idecided to test: A. Data on the #2 stopper establishes the base strength of the1/16" cable. B. Data on the #5 stopper establishes the basestrength of the 3/32" cable. C. Data on the #8 stopper establishesthe base strength of the 1/8" cable. D. Data on Camalot slingsestablishes the base strength of the webbing loops. Base Data: 1/16" cable: Average 724 lbs, Minimum 566 lbs, Rating 450 lbs, N= 131. 3/32" cable: Average 1747 lbs, Minimum 1409 lbs, Rating1259 lbs, N = 220. 1/8" cable: Average 2970 lbs, Minimum 2607lbs, Rating 2248 lbs, N=190. Slings: Average 5781 lbs, Minimum5393 lbs, Rating 4946 lbs, N=236. But, we're not going to be real sophisticated here, we'll just usethe average. 1/6" cable = 724 lbs. 3/32" cable = 1747 lbs. 1/8" cable = 2248lbs. Sling = 5781. New Test Data - all tests use 4 samples. All strengths in pounds. T1: Test actual batch of slings. Average = 5880. Minimum = 5733. Conclusion: this batch of slings a little stronger than average. T2: Test slings, girth hitched together (as they normally are inthe field), not neatly dressed. Average = 4363. Minimum = 4084. Conclusion: girth hitching sling to sling loses 26% of the slingstrength. Given the high initial strength, the hitched system isstill strong enough for most climbing uses. T3: 1/16" cable with sling girth hitched to it. Average = 936.5. Minimum = 911 Conclusion: compared to 1/16" cable average of 724 lbs - Sling isstronger when girth hitched to sling than when run over the headof a tiny stopper. T4: 3/32" cable with sling girth hitched to it. Average = 1301.5. Minimum = 1269. Conclusion: compare to 3/32" cable average of 1747 lbs. Loss ofstrength of 26% on the cable. T5: 1/8" cable with sling girth hitched to it. Average = 1709.0 Minimum = 1624. Conclusion: compare to 1/8" cable average of 2248 lbs. Loss ofstrength of 28%. T6: 1/8" cable with sling doubled through it (rather than girthhitched). Average = 3211. Minimum = 3054. Conclusion: compare to 1/8" cable average of 2248 lbs. No lossof strength. T7: 3/32" cable girth hitched with 3/32" cable (stopper to stopperextension). Average = 1520. Minimum = 1439. Conclusion: compare to 3/32" cable 1747, loss of strength of 13%- better than the sling. Comments: The data is screwed up a little bit because the actualstoppers are tested with the aluminum stopper at the top and a 10mmpin at the bottom. These commonly break at the top, where thecable folds tightly going into the stopper. Thus, in these tests,we can achieve "stronger than average results" because we arerunning the tests differently. Overall conclusion: Yes and No. 1/16" cable (really small stoppers) You probably would not think of tossing a sling through these,because the placement and the cable are so small and weak to beginwith. Looks like the sling does not make it any worse, but thisis of little utility, since this is an aid piece anyway. Not strongenough to rappel off of. 3/32" cable (small stoppers 4, 5 and 6) I think these are usually considered pretty strong, but not truck.Girth Hitching the sling through gives you significant loss ofstrength, to down below the rating on the #5 Stopper. May be OKfor rappelling and low-impact falls, but not for general use. 1/8" cable (large stoppers) These are usually considered truck. Tossing the sling throughresults in a strength of 1709 lbs (loss of 28%). Sketchy still,even on the large size. OK for rappelling and low-impact circumstances,but not for general use. Girth Hitch vs. Doubling the sling through: Doubling through WINS big time. Yes, it takes twice as much sling,but it is definitely significantly stronger. Wire Cable hitched with Wire Cable (Stopper to Stopper extension) Stronger than the sling, but not that strong. Makes for a stiffunit, negating what is often the prime reason for extending thepiece in the first place. Conclusive Overall Conclusions: Girth Hitching a NYLON sling through reasonable size Stoppers isOK for low-strength operations, but should be treated with caution.Doubling the sling through, especially on the smaller sizes, isacceptable. Extending with cables suffers from some of the sameproblems, though to a lesser degree. Spectra Slings - No comment, not tested. And of course, everyone will draw the line differently. Protectinga 60' runout and no biners to spare? Sure, it's better than nothing,but I'd try to double the sling through at the very least. Forsetting a rappel? Acceptable I guess, in the larger sizes, butrepeated use might eventually cut the webbing. Using smaller webbing than the BD 18mm nylon slings? Exercise morecaution. That's my story, I'm a stickin' to it. (signed) Tom Jones aka Jrat aka Ratagonius Utahness

Did you bother contacting their customer service department? (Sorry, I found it tedious to try and wade through your rant to see if you mentioned that). I've been happy with everything I've ever purchased from BDEL. Further, the three times I have had problems with gear (buckles breaking, tent pole punching through the bottom of my Bibler tent, ski pole breaking--three times), they've promptly repaired or replaced the item in question at their expense. And the service items were operator error--not quality of craftsmanship or materials. I wish I could say the same for the other manufacturers with whom I've had to deal. Your mileage, of course, may vary. Perhaps I am odd, but it seems to me that ranting without giving the company an opportunity to satisfy your concerns is bigoted.

There was one reasonably nice line early Saturday but by the time we got done with it the lower portion was melted out.

quote: Originally posted by texplorer: Well Cody that depends on your definition of ice. Your more likely to get in some really scary dry-tooling but if anyone can find ice, herbs, or general debauchery in P-town, Will's the man. There have been rumors that from time to time the gorge has ice for short periods. In some cases you have a matter of hours to take advantage of the conditions. Anyhow, good luck to you gentlemen on your ice capades. I was climbing the ice at ski bowel last weekend. It was way too warm but fun nonetheless. I'm sure its all melted out by now.

Worst ascent: Cayambe in Ecuador. Pick-up driver got a flat, then his spare went flat too. We had to hike about 5 miles to get to the hut. At 12K-15K. Worst decent: East Wilman Spire."going straight down that west gully looks a lot easier then the way we came up""yeah, more direct too""lets do it" 6 rapels off manky chockstones, one stuck rope and 5 hours later we are back at the bikes in Monte Cristo.

I am a retard. Every reference to "east" was meant as "west". Sorry

quote: Originally posted by Dru: you mean the one on monkey space or what? i dont got no pix of that one. cant free it yet. heard bolts were sketchy as of last fall too, some friends retreated. This is incorrect. I have freed it. There is one sketchy bolt just below the cave that can be backed up with a cam but you lose the use of the pocket. The route goes at 5.11b I believe. Getting out of the cave is the crux in my opinion. The exposure is gripping. This cave is east facing and a perfect spot for bivy but of course, illegally.

quote: Originally posted by MysticNacho: No, I'm talking about the other cave (the one that makes up the monkey's ear, not the pioneer route cave. Sleeping in that one would be a bitch, rolling around everywhere! Got any pics of the other cave Dru? You mean the east facing cave?

Its big enough to sleep in, although the east-facing cave is far roomier. Hauling to either cave would be a snap. Also, given the popularity of this route be prepared for lots of company and an early wake-up. Almost every time I've been to Monkey Face, Outward Bound has had a cattle train of 8-15 climbers heading up it. Usually around daybreak. I'd rant about this practice but I'd be willing to bet I'm not in the minority on this. Oh--and its not legal to camp in the park. But you already knew that and were just asking hypothetically right?

quote: Originally posted by KeithKSchultz: I love my radios, my beer, and my wife. Don't we all?

I dont think there are very many purely sport climbs at Beacon. At least not enough to make it worth the trip. I agree with Will about SE corner. On a weekend that route can be as bad or worse than the Pioneer Route on Monkey Face. Wear a helmet if you're down below. Beacon's a great place. There's also some pretty good bouldering in the area.

SE Corner is considered by many to be a classic. Free for All is a great line. Either bring some big gear for the lower part or be prepared to solo a long ways.

Monitor Ridge is pretty common in the winter as well. Try to find someone to drive you to the trailhead on a snowmachine.

quote: Originally posted by erik: patent expired It had not expired by the time Petzl manufactured them. And Lets be clear: Petzl licensed the design from Kong. Probably why they cost more from Petzl then Kong. I imagine the expired patent has something to do with BDEL's entry into the keylock foray.

Thin Air on Koala Rock (5.9 I think) is a pretty fun climb as well. Mixed trad and bolts. The start of the second pitch is the crux.

quote: Originally posted by rayborbon: I picked up a couple of KBs saturday. I got the Camp ones. A couple of dollars cheaper than BD too. Also heard they are both made by the same company and are the same pitons. Another reason BD sux butt sometimes. [ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: rayborbon ] I suppose Petzl sucks as well since they sell the keylock biner at a significant mark-up from what Kong (the patent holder) sells them. It pays to shop around. Good score Ray.

quote: Originally posted by kweb: I have noticed that many gear lists for Denali suggest using 2 pads... a therm-a-rest and the ridge rest. Combined they offer an R value of 5.2. and weight of 30ozs (3/4 length ultra light and full length ridge rest). I currently use a Mt. Hardware High Mt. 60. R value is 6.75 and weighs 32ozs. While the overall thickness of the combo is 1.63" (compaired to 1.125"), 4 ounces lighter and 12" longer....The Mt. Hardware pad has a higher R value. What do you all think is a better choice? Take them both. I don't understand the discussion here--you are asking about Denali right? Its not like you're doing it Twight style in a single 4-hour push from Kahiltna International Airport. You're pulling a fucking sled, fer crissakes. Take all the damn pads you can carry, along with a few camp chairs and a gas-fired BBQ. You'll be damn glad you did. When your tent-bound for a week at 14K trying to negotiate the indentations in the snow melted out from the lack of protection your puny .3mm thick, 6" long frame pad that you pulled from inside your pack. . jesus, someone stop me now. You're going to have plenty of time to think about what you left behind. Bring an extra pad. You'll be glad you did. Put all the light stuff in your pack, load the sled with the heavy stuff then tell your partner you have lower back problems and can't pull a sled. Have a good time and sleep well.

Gone. Traded for fresh Barney bibs. I'm a slave to fashion.

quote: Originally posted by wayne1112: They will form when the Gorge does,and stick around a little longer. A better phrasing might be IF the Gorge does. We saw a little ice earlier in the season but nothing climbable. Anybody know if Pete's pile is in?

quote: Originally posted by bballer44: i-84 to hood river, hang a right and go about 30 miles. . . This will put you at Parkdale (approximately) and quite a ways from Timberline. If I'm going to Timberline I take the Troutdale exit as described above. Its the most hassle-free in my opinion. If I'm going just about anywhere else on the mountain I go through H.R. Its alot mroe scenic, even if its a lot longer. Besides, the pizza in H.R. is worth the stop.

quote: Originally posted by IceIceBaby: Randy Rackliff the owner and maker of this packs is, a very accomplish NE climber who design the pack because the market at the time (1990) didn’t have an alpine packs. He doesn't have a marketing campaign, no ads at the magazines, hell - he doesn't have an 800 number needless to say a web site. When you call his studio, you always get him and not a marketing rap. Basically, he is not here for the money he is all about making gear that works and transfer the saving from all the extra that mention above to the climbers, who really know what they looking for. Why do people insist on assuming manufacturers are not in it for the money? Why the hell else would someone go through the hassle of desing, construction and marketing? Its a business.

quote: Originally posted by imorris: Tough to do if you live in NE and commute to L. Oswego. There are other reasons to avoid Burnside besides traffic. But I won't let the thread creep. You already did.

quote: Originally posted by imorris: In bike accidents, you tend to quit for the day or head to the hospital after you kiss the bumper of that *#&$# 4.7L Range Rover on Burnside driven by the f'ing soccer mom on the cellphone trying to organize a dinner party as you're trying to get to work, so you can generally expect only a single impact. Hence the lightweight styrofoam style. Here's a thought: avoid Burnside during rush hour. For climbing my vote goes for the hard-shell helmets. Styros aren't designed for multiple impacts. When I'm doing that agony of defeat tumble off the Sandy Headwall I don't want pieces of my helmet beating me to the base. Plus I'm a slave to fashion.

I need some new bibs. I don't need this handgun (anymore). Anyone wanna trade?