ScaredSilly

Though I have meet all three IMG principles I would second the following - crowded route, easy to get off route, get a Zermatt guide and add the following - the rock is slick as snot when wet so getting down is where screws happen. Why a Zermatt guide, cause they are local and they will have more tricks up their sleave to get you the hill. If you want to other peaks that are less crowded then using IMG would fine.

Take your passport to safe as with the rules changing there is apt to be a cluster fuck going on on both sides of the border. Weekend do not feel bad about getting pulled out of the car. Happens to us each time as well. Porbably does not help that we cross the border at 2am in van.

Have no idea on that one. Could be the mixing of the term summit and summit ridge. One year I summited and meet two people coming down the south side who said they could not find the summit because of the clouds. Went I reached it I saw their tracks - they went right along the summit ridge and down to the Pearly Gates. The south side is in general easier to descend but then again if you can not find it then you go with what you know. They would have been seeing the Spur route all day.

Iain, thanks for sharing these photos they add a lot. This whole "Y" thing I found very odd. Your photo really clears things up. Two questions, at this point in time are can you give a description of where exactly this is? Also I notice in the lower right corner yellow rope or some thing - any explaination possible? Something folks might find of interest. In the fall of 92 or so I did a solo climb of Cooper's Spur it was a mix of snow and pretty hard ice. During the climb I found many sections of 1" diameter goldline rope. It was rotten as all get out. Some sections were buried in the ice others melted out. I pulled on one section which easily broke. I watched it fall to Elliot glacier below. The mountian has lots of stuff on it. Also what Iain refers to as the old summit shack was at one time a Forest Service fire lookout. Mt. Adams also has one that is still there as I remember. The rope I found was probably used in ascending the mtn. to the lookout. Copper's Spur is the most direct and quickest way up the mtn. It is also one of the most unforgiving if you fall.

This is a damned if you do and damned if you do not. When a storm hits you really do not know how long it is going to last. The mountains make thier own weather. It could be a blue bird day at Timberline but with high winds up top - winds that you can not always see because there are no clouds or the typical snow plumes coming off (snow plumes are formed by the wind picking up the snow). So here is the delima we have been stuck here for XX days and have run out of gas/water/food. If we stay here much longer there is no way we are going to make it through another night. We have enough strength but the weather is bad. WTF do we do?? I have been pinned on the top (~14k) of Rainier several times - with high winds (30-60 mph winds with no vis). Like with these climbers going back down our acsent route was not really a option and like these guys we had descent weather just an afternoon cloud cap came in. Though we knew the terrain to a certain degree (i.e had been in the area before but forgot one clue for the descent). As such we holed up (several climbers joined us - safety in numbers). The other time samething but different area. However, in both times in a tent but that does matter too much. The point is moving was not much of an option. becuase we were getting cold and wet. As soon as we could see (one case 3 hours latter, the other 18 hours later) we boogied out of there as soon as we could see well enough to move without falling into a crack (i.e creavse). So it is really a judgement call. Much of it falls under the title of group dynamics.

Here is some speculation. For the lack of any thought I just can not see these guys splitting up. For instance, if one was injuried why leave them alone when you have a cell phone to make an SOS call. Even with crappy reception - why not one climb to the summit place a SOS call and rejoin the others. I am sure they knew they were near the top. If one or more were exhausted near the summit I can see them digging two snow caves so they could get out of the wind and warm up. (Note this would before the storms). Digging multiple cave might seem odd but if it is windy you want to get out of the wind ASAP. Why they are not connected I could not answer. Kelly may not have realized his state and crawled into a cave by himself thinking he would be fine. Sunday night he calls and is not doing well. The storms then hit. They hang for saveral days. Saddly one pass away. The other two feeling they must move and take everything they really need and try to descend - but to get out of there they must go up first. Perhaps over but as I and others have said Cooper's Spur would be the most obvious. Some other thoughts - I can not see these guys leaving tools behind. You never want to that especially with unknown terrain. The tools and other gear found must be of the person in the cave. Leaving the rope surpises me though.

A couple notes on snow caves. As many have said they are primo when conditions suck. Having spent a few nights in one over the years, including on Hood here are a few thoughts. I would guess that if Kelly James is able to do anything he has been "developing" the cave with each day so that it is more comfortable and more protected. When you do not have much to do but wait it out things like this help out the mind and pass the time. If I remember correctly from my ascents of Hood, including the Spur Route. The NF gullies and the Spur route are in very close proximity and it is reasonable to traverse from the NF over the Spur which to me would be a logical descent, especially because they would have seen it on the way up. BTW Your storm is hitting us in Ootah tonight. I'll be skiing one for the boys tomorrow.

When I got my first policy State Farm removed the double indemnity clause and bumped the premium. But nothing like what you are talking about. After ten years they dropped the restrictions. I was very up front about the extra activities (climbing, diving, no ATV or flying). What made some of the difference is that 1) I taught climbing classes, 2) I did it regularly, and 3) did it at a high level (difficult climbs). Not sure shy the last made a difference but it did.

Two winters (early March) ago when the Carbon River Road was washed out we walked in from the Carbon River Station. It took about 2 - 2.5 hours to get to Ipsut Creek Campground. There were quite a few people walking and biking on the road. We left about noon and got up to the meadows that day and up to the base of the Willis the next. Then we played ;-).

Yeah, they are going to know the labels on their gear by heart. Hopefully they do not do anything crazy like the remove the tab that says "Do not remove under penalty of law" It would really suck to arrive at Timberline only to have the Sheriff want to chat with them about all those labels. ;-). The above may sounds silly but keeping positive is a real key to things. During one winter ski tour my partner and I got hammered with 12 feet of snow in 4 days then the temps dropped to -50F. As we wallowed through the snow our manta became "Are we having fun yet?" Everytime time one of us would say that the other would laugh.

The locators are a *@#$% farce. The press will be all over this. Of course if you can not get in range they do not doing one @#$% piece of good. Let alone people on the hill to help. They naturally fail to mentioned this little fact. Here is one reason why the two climbers might have descended Coper Spur. They would have seen this route on their approach. As such, when the weather crapped out they might have decided that descending Cooper Spur was a better option because it would at least take them down terrain they had at least seen. Which would lead to terrain they had previously traveled. Also if one thinks about it Cooper Spur has better features for following in a white out than the south side. Of course this is pure speculation.

Man, I hope that I never have to be rescued after a trip to REI. After flying into SeaTac we stop by REI on every trip up Rainier to buy fuel, food, and even one time a head lamp cause I forgot mine. I think a few times we asked for directions on how to get to the hill. Mean while it sounds like it is power shower on Hood. A cave is a good place to be. Hope it turns out well.

I prefer a 100m as a half/twin. I got an 8.3mm from PMI that is rated as both a half and twin rope. When I want to run it out I can otherwise double it up on the harder stuff.

Fred has probably drank more booze too.

Thanks. I was the RC for what was the Great Basin through most of the 90s. Which included many states but not Oregon. However, I did do a little in far eastern Oregon - Lesile Gulch. That was interesting to say the least. Lesile Gulch also made the Falcon guide. Cetainly a place I would stop at - right after I get off the Oywhee BTW - I should add I am no longer associated with the Access Fund in any form as such my comments are mine alone. And if you think otherwise - you are a fool.

I do not see anyone making such statements. Most comments are more of these are small crags and are surprised to see them in the guide. I interpert this comment to mean the authors were short on material and looking for fodder. The other previlent comment is about the accuracy of the guide. Some of the crags are on private property, some are in sensitve areas. Then there is the "missing" info like history and FA info. Finally, there is a long history in the climbing community of respecting the local ethics of an area, which often includes keeping areas quite until "the discovers get in their licks first". There is also a long history of controversy as well. I have delt with this personally on and off for over 15 years. (I was on the board of the Access Fund from day one and a regional coordinator for way too many years) Yes and no ... people can vote with their wallets if it is time. Personally the I would not buy the book. The quality of the book depends on the authors and as importantly the editors and publishers. Falcon is pumping out guide books left and right I wonder who the editors are, if any?? When I talked to the Falcon reps at the OR show I got the impression that there are none. As such, they are leaving the "editing" up to the authors which means quality goes down hill. How about the rest of Montana? A sample of one does not mean squat. Surly yours, Scared Silly

We are talking about the same thing just different names. And yes the Public Shelter and the Guides Hut are on the historic register. Most people do not know this. As for the heresay this would not surprise me. Last year I heard some of the "plans" that the NPS planners wanted to do at Muir. Having delt with them at the City of Rocks all I can say is that the NPS planners have a lot to be desired. They seem to bent on building for the sake of building have do not have much of a clue.

All of this can be found in the commercial services plan that was approved last spring. Unfortunately, I can not find the docs on line currently as the link seems to be down. http://www.nps.gov/archive/mora/current/park_mgt.htm#CSP In a nut shell the independent guide program is not through any agency but guides will have to show proficiency which may be through AMGA or similar. Also as part of this and the Camp Muir restoration. The gumbo cook shelter that was constructed under questionable conditions will be torn down. And more than likely each of the consessions will have their own hut such as Weatherport which can be taken down each season. The more interesting part is what will become of the guides hut. Personally I would like to see all of the guides in Wetherports, the NPS a frame removed and with the rangers using the guidfe hut. This would certainly reduce some of the permanent footprint at Muir.

Get on line and rent a car. We have gotten them pretty cheap in the past. I think the best we did was $20 a day.

Must have gotten tired of the quality issues and all the recalls.

My favorite drug for preventing AMS is large quanties of dihydogen-monoxide.

Tetons - Jackson & Ortenbuger latest edition is about 5 years old. There is also a mini/mini guide that is fine for the trade routes. Wind Rivers - The Kelsey guide is really the only thing - helps keep the adventure level high. Desert SW - Unless you want the 4 Vol Bjornstad set or are lucky enough to find the first ed single vol from Brjonstad. Rock climbing Utah by Green is your best best. There is also a new book for S Utah and the Arizona Strip along with one for Indian Creek. coffee-table style? Canyon Country Climbs - Wiggins & Cassidy Layton Kor's book - hard to find and really $$

Mark, you really need to pull your head out of your chalk bag. Your posts are nothing more than loathsome sophomoric drool. Most intelligent people would understand that the point of my post was not to nominate a peak out of the US let alone Antarctica but to show that other countries do things different than the US. Although many people think the US is the center of the world - it aint. So open your mind your a$$ will follow. BTW I do not need any named peaks. There are already two that use my name - one in BC and one in Anarctica. But thanks for the offer. Now back on the subject. Several years ago I talked to Fred about what peak was probably his favorite. And contrary to most it is not a peak the USA. Certainly a green card peak though.

Wrong again, dumb dumb This true in US but other countries this is not always the case. For instance, several peaks in Antarctica were just named after the members of the expedition that made the first ascent of Vinson. Most of which are still alive. Not sure who regulates peak names in Antarctica but I would guess that the USGS Board was involved. I am sure Fred will get a peak, but he has a few more to climb first.

Rather than doing the car shuttle thing for descending the South Side you can just come across the Newton Clark Glacier and pick up the trail leading up to Tie-In Rock. I did this after a solo climb, the NC Galacier had very few cracks to worry about as much of it was melted out. BTW Tie-In Rock is well above where you want to traverse onto the Elliot Glacier for the NF Routes. Also Tie-In Rock can be a very windy place. If you can not get to Cloud Cap and walk in I would bivy lower down near timberline it is not far to where the cut off to the Elliot Glacier.