StevenSeagal

Doesn't matter though because I think we're all close to reaching an agreement here! This has been very therapeutic.

I already suggested a libtard forum but that got rejected.

cool, be sure to leave your draws up so I can send after you're finished. Also leave the boom box cranking to keep that extra good vibeage going for me, bro-ham!

im the kind douchbags like you find in bed with wifey (making the assumption that you arent a pole smoker. im wrong alot). How EVER did this topic end up getting moved to spray?

Style actually is a mental construct that has largely to do with one's personal aesthetics and one's need to project them onto others. Pretty simple. Failing an onsight ascent, one is left with the choice of practicing the route by lowering off and trying the whole thing again, or staying up there and working the difficult section specifically. Either way is practice, projecting, rehearsing- and I think both are valid. If someone dogs up a route and pulls on gear and then claims a free ascent- well that doesn't count, but whoever said it did? Are you saying this is a common thing? Regardless of what form of practice occurred, I don't know anyone who calls a free ascent anything other than climbing from the ground up without weighting the rope or pulling on gear. I'm sure we can agree on that definition, therefore your fixation on how people get to that point is perplexing to me. Need we also wear striped tube socks and gay running shorts? Because at one time, those were pretty damn cool. Sport climbing won't make everyone a 5.13 climber, but if you're going to assert that it hasn't helped raise the technical standards of climbing over the past 25 years, then that is just laughable. Sport climbing is my least favorite mode- I prefer alpine and trad-but my experience with it is an improvement of strength, agility, technique, and sometimes it's just a fun and unstressful day out on nice steep rock.

Only a good point if you're missing the point - read my response to that post of Rob's above. I did...decent point there but most climbers I know make sound judgements about gear and have a strong skill in risk assessment, which covers those concerns of which you speak. Which goes back to my point, which is that your assertion that dogging gear is inherently dangerous is merely that- an assertion that may be true in some cases but one that is without merit if you try to make it a universal truth. In other words, it's b.s. "ancient notion of ethics"? 40 years hardly makes something ancient. I still assert that ethics in this case is contrived. I have no issue with the old school way of lowering off after a fall. In some respects, I'll grant that it could be considered more sporting, trying to get it clean with as little knowledge as possible. Having said that, practitioners of either method are aiming for the same thing, they are just using different paths. To assert the ethical superiority of one over the other when neither harms another is pure egotism. How differently, really , is working a route on toprope versus on lead? It's all practice, and on lead there is still the risk of falling and therefore there exists the opportunity to practice ongoing risk assessment at the same time, keeping your lead head sharp. So I'm not buying this notion that people who hangdog are more likely to "meltdown" when faced with a runout. I've seen plenty of evidence to suggest the contrary in fact. In the end, I hear people like you and Raindawg denigrating 5.13 redpoints as illegitimate on the basis of the style, yet most 5.13 climbers can hike onsight just about any 5.11 or 5.12- gee, how did they get that strong? For someone who has ranted against religious ideologues so fervently, you sound so very similar to them- full of indignant righteousness. It's a good thing you old dudes didn't used to lead with one arm tied behind your back.

so, you're OK with people placing gear and falling on it, but they shouldn't dog it because they might not have set it right. Good point...and if people weighting trad gear is a drag, then you best not ever watch anyone climb El Cap. Seriously, to invoke "ethics" with respect to dogging is not only childish but totally egotistical. When I think ethics, I think of issues like environmental degradation, murder, theft, etc. Someone rehearsing moves may offend your sensibilities, but unethical? Gimme a break. This is recreation. Personally I would argue that dogging is if anything safer than committing to falling every time as long as that person knows how to set pro- and if you don't, then you have no business leading at your limit anyway. No one sets out to dog a route, really- I think the ideal is ground up with no falls or hangs; if you don't make that, then I see nothing wrong with working on the troublesome section independently. Moreover I think one learns the route and the grade faster this way- running up the 80' section of 5.10a repeatedly and then falling off the .11+ move and going back to the start may be an honorable way to do it too but in the end that's just one way of making a game out of it, and it doesn't really put you in the learning zone for as much time- in my opinion.

I freed a 5.6 the other day....am I not "living my passion"? Passion begins at 5.12b, kev.

And if you're a tomb raider, you blow up the whole cliff in search of mummies, and booty the scattered fragments of ancient bolt 'artifacts' as a consolation prize in case Al Capone's vault is empty!* *JUST KIDDING DUDE

If nothing else, that song will now be stuck in your head for the rest of the week.

This was my experience: [video:youtube]m8Dgu--CzGw Fuck this b.s. gov't program!

OHHH!!!!!!! FUCK YEAH! Almost forgot...

No, now commence endless right wing talk radio vitriol for how Clinton merely took advantage of an opportunity for egoistic publicity and appeased a terrorist regime by meeting with Kim and how the release of these two damages our North Korean strawman and might make it less likely we'll get to bomb them after all.

things far above and beyond your intellectual capacities. Go run and play now.

You realize what you are doing to your kidneys doing this... right? ...said the young man...

I don't think there has been any misinterpretation at all. The word "sucks" in the title of this thread was, for pink, like the porch light to a moth.

Call him Max. I do. I haven't actually met him yet, but we're on a first name basis. I'm sure once we meet we'll become good friends.

OH HAI GUYS!! Who wants to join me in the climbers board for a sensitive and respectful discussion about bolting and chopping routes? I just want you all to know that I only place bolts where I need them, otherwise I think all bolts are total unnecessary trash and an environmental abomination and should be chopped ASAP. I was just at the base of Cunning Stunt the other day trying to explain to my friend what a travesty it was to the purity of the environment. The freight train roaring by 50 yards away, the falling rocks loosened by the quarrying off left, and scientists slamming the door of the cosmic Ray station prevented him from hearing my expert points, but once we drove down to Gold Bar where it was quieter, he understood what I meant. So who wants to join me in this discussion? I'd like to talk about which routes we should chop first and also explain my reasoning for the bolts I placed on other routes (think: sick difficulty/death fall! Whoa!!). I have some photos of my friend soloing some routes, which should lend even more weight to my already unassailable arguments.

Who is your daddy, and what does he do???

[video:youtube]v=mDnx0OmIWe8 Who wants a body massage?

[video:youtube]v=9Z23ehBIecs

Hey Pope- Cheers and thanks for the cool report. It's good to get the full backstory and more photos about it in a non-spray setting. That was the real deal! -SS ps-even though it does give Raindawg more spank material!

I JUST LOGGED ON TO POST IN THIS IMPORTANT THREAD.

You have to be 21 or older to delete photos.

That talking chicken really concerns you, doesn't it? I guess you deserve some kudos for deciphering that it's very likely a human, and not really a Rooster, that is posting under that name. I gotta say, it had all the rest of us fooled though. How'd you get those brains? So says the man whose sole contribution here is to spew sarcastic negativity and ridicule everything that offends his hypersensitive "morals and ethics" as related to a recreational activity, including the ridicule of professional climbers. Grow a skin if you're going to dish it out. Lighten up, Francis. Why? So you can ridicule me? I mean, what do you fuckin' do, man?!?? Besides, I already told you: Yes, I'm all about that. Are we friends now?