Checat

let the grownups talk. keep it in my pants. Over my head. Truly spoken like an idiot who has no intelligent response to a non-bolting ethic. Do you have safety railings to help you sit down to take a shit as well? Maybe anti-slip coating to make it out to your car? So you really have no intelligible response, just pooh flinging? Totally unrelated, Oregon has a f-load of quartzite. The stuffs pretty hard, doesn't leave me disappointed in any lack of Granite in Oregon. There is a multitude of great rock here.

You indicate (g-spotter) of a "new, modern crag" as completely focused on your subjective principles of development. I am a part of the development a "new, modern crag" that saw its first routes around 1998 and it has zero bolts, utilizes gear for all anchor points; lead, belay, multipitch and otherwise and is developed in what I consider a "modern" ethic. Just because bolts are vogue does not mean they are synonymous with "modern".

It seems like you haven't given everybody enough information because your feedback is all over the map - "a la hard grit (headpointing no pro)", "Top down is best" etc... Responses were pretty quick to assume a bop gun (motorized drill) - only one responder even mentioned a Hand Drill and Hammer. If your talking ground up - on lead at a climbing area that does allow bolts - is the rock suitable for a Hand Drill? You mention other developers putting up climbs near yours, Did they develop ground-up?, Did they hook? ...What did they do? Did they use motorized drills? Did they use hand drills? On hooks? Did they find stances? Its MUCH more important what other developers who have already established lines at your area think than what random people on CascadeClimbers.com think you should do. If you don't know the answers to to how others have developed routes at your project crag you shouldn't be bolting there because you haven't put enough research in the area to be bolting. If the area has been developed with other developers finding stances to hand drill bolts, maybe your not the one to develop it if they can find stances that you may not. Not trying to be a hater but I'm a big believer that the route should be developed by the right person for the job, not brought down to the level of a would be ascentist. What if an older generation had chipped all of our current hardest? With bolts, its all subjective, but when you use the word "pure" (which I don't think bolts can be at all) I think you have to determine whether yourself or someone else has the physical tools to apply the best ethics, styles, and tactics. Would someone else be able to apply a hand drill where you have to use a motorized? Would someone else find stances where you have to hook?

This route was one of the first 50 I climbed ever, when I first started climbing while going to school in Ashland. Stellar. There are actually a couple satellite pillars near Pilota and a couple of crags sprinkled around the Norcal border some right off I-5, some you have to get on the off roads that run around Hornbrook, the Buddhist Temple etc... some climbed, some not...

Bouldering is good. I stuck with the stuff on lovers beach. some problems, bouldered the start of some routes. Found myself doing some bouldering and missed the "privado" sign on a second outing (woops!) Padless, shoes and chalkbag only. There was a recent article in on the rags about world class bouldering further north on the peninsula, but would require a drive (maybe if your driving to Hotel California anyway?)... not sure how much your trip is about getting some vertical in and how much is about sipping mojados on the beach.

I'll second that tucked under the wobbly leg of a clothes dryer is the Oregon Falcon Guide's true lot in life. Your getting more out of it than the rest of those who made the mistake of buying it...

jefe - you want the goods - pm me - and remember honey not vineger. BTW when did I ever "threaten to chop long established climbs"? I didn't. I said Flagstone should be kept as is, as a testament to how newer generations can royally fuck up what others did before them, which is exactly what would happen if someone put a single bolt at the Jack. As far as in Tim Olsons guide updates, doubt it. More likely to hit one of Orton's. I have good reason to believe that Orton has a bootleg of one of the few printed copies of my works, but its a tad outdated (30 something of 60+ established climbs). Mile long band (1/4 of it established). 1 - 3 pitch climbs. 5.10- to 5.12+ but potential for harder. Rack = everything including the kitchen sink (doubles of normal stuff (#00- 4) + 4.5, 5 and 6 cams, sliding chocks, ballnuts, and brass

shapp yes, b-spire

"smug assholes"? I don't flame undeserving people on this site for my own amusement. i don't need to lighten up because i'm not really bothered by random comments made by people that know nothing about the forums subject (moolack, in case people are losing sight of that). Just clarifying for people who are looking for actual information and who don't care for the random poo-flinging and baseless conjecture. I tend to stick to posting on areas I have extensive knowledge on, not just trolling like some Maybe if you hadn't come off as such an a-hole yourself I would have been/would be a little more inclined to sharing the love. There is only one person that I've ever willingly withheld info and that was because he made it clear that Bolting was part of his agenda, which is absolutely in conflict with everything that the area stands for. Outside of that I've never had a reason to not share the area with folks, despite the hot water its gotten me into by sharing with others.

no and no

Maybe if rabbit ears were 3 times bigger. Yes its name does show up on a map. You really shouldn't input based on second hand beta procurement, but, oh well. I guess anybody can read a guidebook. powderhound, i've pointed it out to you in the flesh. May have even driven you up to its lookout on a detour to the real deal.

Name that crag! Unless you've climbed with me I'd be pretty surprised if you got this one...

Alright, name that route! The one ending in the centered finger to fist sized crack to the right of corner pillar... Theres a handful of people on this site that will get it...

el jefe, So you've been there? No. Didn't think so As far as the moss misnomer that has kept the crowds away for years (along with the approach) - for the record a well cleaned line stays comfortably climbable for 6 good seasons. Climbs that see traffic (Lost Art, Up on Ped, Zion Train, Knife Fight etc...) haven't had moss in years. If the hoards of bolt loving Oregonians didn't make flagstone such the regular scene it too would be covered in moss again. Its not something innate to Moolack, its innate to the west slope of the cascades. If you don't want moss head to central oregon. El jefe you keep making comments like you've been to the place, which I don't think you have. Am I wrong? Atreides - Moolack looks absolutely NOTHING like the Menagerie! Moolack = one large band of crack climbs. Menagerie = small shitlet towers with little to no continous crack systems.

Julian, you used big bros yet? All thats needed is the gold and blue, but all size of bros are certainly helpful. Also if you can still track one down on e-bay or have one from when BD still put them out: a 4.5 Camalot is super helpful on a lot of routes out there and you'd surprised at how many lines you can leave the #5 and #6 at the car for if you do have a 4.5 But don't forget the thin brass and ball-nutz(good pair of brass ones help too...) as well.

As I tried to say to you over the phone...it is not like ozone or broughton. Its rock is different. Its not basalt. It doesn't climb like those areas, its nothing like those areas... Its easy to make those assumptions but trust me, its unlike your standard issue Oregon Crag. You don't have to think its a big deal, many would be quite content for non-believers to continue thinking its a mossy choss pile, but unless you've been to the place you really shouldn't put comparisons out there

el jefe fair enough. 90% of the photos I have are too big a files to upload and in reality I'm trying to reserve the best stuff for the guidebook. most lackers out there don't really want to see any photos of the place disclosed but there is a time and place for everything so your saying these photos pale in comparison to the Zero photos that you've submitted to this site?

Heres some Yin (or is Flagstone the yin and the Lack is the Yang? Sort out which is which Shapp)

Its worth the hype. Be ready for things that make areas like that fun though: longish drive, steep approach, short days, bad weather. Isn't Oregon climbing fun? Oh yeah and lots of moss A taste. All my real photos of the place are stitches, panoramics and line topos that are too large to upload onto this website, so I put up what would fit.

so is this thread about moolack or is it about Flagstone... Its fine if the topics moved on. I've waited 5+ years for more folks to be interested and involved with the area so waiting a bit more is no big deal... For those who have sneaked a peak at any of the early manuscripts to the Moolack area I look forward to putting forth some printed material regarding the routes and the areas history and ethics in the near future. The style of route development is the areas story on top of killer cracks of a multitude of size, height and angle. As far as of retro-bolting, retro-choppoing etc... at the flagstone beyond its current state (other than tightening swingers), let it rest - there are far too many other crags in the region that do need bolts - lines established the same way Fralick, Arrington, etc... and other early developers at flagstone put routes in - ground up, on lead, bolting from stances, with at least reasonable (objective) distances between bolts. If you need one - PM me Is there anyone out there really defending the Tvedts activities at Flagstone or Callahans? Do they (please feel free to post) defend there actions at these areas? I always made my assumptions that they were more involved and interested in their children safely climbing routes than the hundreds about hundreds who would have loved to climb routes at the flagstone in its original state.

powderhound you crack me up, still sending people elsewhere (eastern Oregon...lol...) theres not enough plum boltless lines out there for you... To those that do climb there and who have visited over the years there should be no big surprises about someone asking around about the place on a website like this: (the new base of Lost Art/Pedestal info bucket, more bouldering developing, trails getting more obvious; I ran into 4 new people and learned of two more just last season). What surprises me is that he got flamed so severly to the extent that he/she would remit his remarks/questions and completely retreat? In that old thread http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/876229/1 you guys make it pretty intimidating to talk ethics in crags around oregon... Shapp is right about the rain, but you might still run into me out there in full waterproof hoisting the old wire brush and crowbar... don't get it twisted Flagstone - don't chop, it is what it is - learn from the mistake of what it stands for as a climbing area, bolts at MOolack - Will be chopped - no question and I might not be the quickest on the draw to do so - there is a line of people ready to chop any bolts at Moolack....

No you're not... and neither is Shapp. If you were you'd have left it alone! This is at least shapp's 2nd time hijacking a TR about this place because of his distaste for that guide (he did it to mine, too - thanks jackass!) ! lostcamkenny, your webthread that was "hijacked" by shapp to the same region kinda doesn't pan out. You mention how the guide derailed your initial goal and attributed misinformation. I don't think shapp is doing a disservice commenting on the lackings of the printed Falcon Guide. Maybe you would have "bagged Lee's..." then and not now or since your intial trip out there. Based on previous posts I'm actually surprised your "done with this thread" in terms of not acknowledging the problems of the printed guidebook. I know if I paid money for a guide that took me to the wrong place, I'd want its shortcomings known. I sold these things daily to climbers for a couple years, customers wanting to only buy one guidebook to a variety of areas and felt that while limiting them to an Orton or Olson(limiting region, not quality *those guides kick ass because they focus their attention on THEIR region:-)) or even Horton's recent(ish) publishing that was more Trip based throughout the state; I was putting in their hands a more quality guidebook than something that simply broke down more county borders, but did neccesarily deliver a quality product. If you caught Horton's slideshow when he was touring his book he was upfront of where he came from in climbing, what hes done in the state and how he presents his information from the trips he made over a particular period of time. The correspondence he developed with people of the regions he was covering was vital, as the case with other authors throughout the state. etc... He was professional and presented the guidebook under no pretenses. I don't imagine he had many information misrepresentations, but if he did, having met the guy I think he would have owned up to the mistake and acknowledged that. He presents a taste of climbing for the weekend warrior, and was meant to even turn climbers on to other guides that were more thorough in regard to their area. The reason people get on these websites is they want to have information in regard to climbing- Yes, No? I would say learning that a guidebook SUCKS and money should not be wasted on it could be chalked up as one of the best things that can come out of checking into the Trip Report of a particular area, no?

I don't think WageSlave even would mind the thread-jack considering he acknowledges in one of his posts that he didn't think highly of the guide and wouldn't mind seeing a more quality resource to pull from. If your defending the guys that wrote the guide and bitter about the criticism of said guidebook, fair enough. But I think original Poster WS is just as intrigued at how the printed information into the area is as interesting as any more hoots and hollers over a congratulatory climb. Well for the record: Hoot and Holler, WS I'll buy you the first beer for that summit and every other you've knocked off since you intially put that TR on the web, now, outside of lostcamkenny is anyway else that abject to finding out how people are finding out about the area? and of what printed information out there, what's actually been beneficial for people visiting the area? BTW, do I need to make fun of people who live or who have lived on the west side of the Cascades to be called an a&*-h^%$ like you called shapp? I'm stuck there so it would only be putting myself down.

I will try and defend schapp a bit on this, its only fair because, like him, I was doing my share of belly-aching when that Bolf piece of junk was released. The guidebooks that have defined and depicted Oregons rich rock-climbing history, in the past, have had defining qualities that have lended to an amazing oral history of the activity in our great state: Dodge's initial state guide, Jeff Thomas' Oregon Rock, Watt's Smith. Even the regionals like the local style stuff that came out of the Umpqua and Southern Oregon and Tim Olson's Portland Region series are quality resources with history, ascentist information, and they were developed by and in conjunction with the developers of the areas that they covered. Even Greg Orton's series has picked up the torch for this concept that a guidebook should go beyond the driving directions and route information. In all these situations modern and historic the RIGHT person developed the RIGHT guidebook because of REAL route knowledge and an obvious emphasis on research, communication with involved ascent parties and an acknowledgement of the areas history and its place in Oregon Rock-climbing. THE FALCON GUIDE IS EVERYTHING THAT THESE OTHER GUIDES WERE NOT: While this thread is in regard to Anthony Lakes, my frustration, (and I believe shapps if you pressed him) is that the authors of the Falcon guide were not the right gentleman for the job. Pure and simple. They flagrantly posted areas that had been developed for decades before they were even "climbers". Local climbers who were already part of these areas, had (and have) a greater knowledge of not only the correct names and ratings but also have something to present in regard to WHO came before them and developed, WHAT ethical and stylistic regard the area was developed under and WHY these previously unknown areas held a place in the states anthology of great climbing. The Falcon authors completely disregarded all these attributes that make up a GOOD guidebook and opted to post directions that they obviously procured from the Web and opted for cheap, less than helpful hand drawns for areas that were already published, and included new stuff that they weren't really prepared to do the footwork for in a tawdry attempt to actually sell some copies. If they called their piece of junk Rock and Web and simply called it what it was: a compilation of internet facts of the time, and presented it as their interpretation of a seemingly GUMBY roadtrip based on information ANYONE could have garnered from the web than they would have at least been honest about what they were peddling. BUT NO! They are trying to sell it as a STATE GUIDE. If it is a state guide, than people that have been climbing around this state for longer then they have will have an extremely high standards for that State Guide. If some are content with it as a resource to at least get them in the vicinity of "new" terrain to them, fair enough. But in real terms: How often is Falcon going to sink money into developing an Oregon State guide? As an Oregonian climber objectively looking at said guide, does it represent your states climbing potential in a positive light? IMHO - If I was from Vermont and looked at that pile of butt-wipes I would scoff at Oregon and assume the same old moniker: "nuthin much outside of smith", which after climbing in and out of this state for over 8 years now, I know is false. They were the wrong guys for the job, and I welcome there defense of this accusation. The fact that they were unwillingly to even see the error of their ways when knowledgable folks contacted them post-publishing and care little to make amends for their ULTIMATE FAILURE of a guidebook is even more evidence that the job of publishing a State of Oregon guide was someone else's to undertake. BTW, Sorry to truly hijack this from a stellar Trip Report on a stellar area. But people should understand shapp's (and my) condemnation of the Falcon Guide. We shouldn't have to accept as Oregon Climbers a misrepresentation of what Oregon climbing is about. Or should we? should we be content that two jokers are making money off of something I wouldn't use as mountain money on cragging expedition?

If anyone were to do it, it should be you (mark hauter); from what I've heard of your exploits in that region of the state. The authors of the (I agree with shapp) failed Falcon state guide misrepresented the area but still let people know about its wherabouts. Out of respect to the areas and these great visionaries who developed them, a guidebook should be developed.