Checat

Exactly, which is why bringing this issue to light is valid. If I felt there was any reception on his end for making the proper edits, I obviously wouldn't have gone on CC.com, but he and his crew are pretty set in their stance, so I guess I'm pretty set in mine. If anyone wants to see one of the areas in question: check out the area Garden in the Willamette Valley in both rockclimbing.com and mountainproject.com. I have made notes below all photos and all route info pages that were misinformed. Whats on the web is a small portion of what is out there and I'm not sure what else he's misnamed, misgraded and misFAed but I'm sure he's claiming a lot.

The ass clown is a gentleman who moved to my hometown from the state of IOWA in the late 2000's (after 2006 before 2010) with big Christopher Columbus ideas about how he needed to present to Oregonians that their First Ascents and continuous repeats of routes were somehow Void and that anything he touched was a claim at a new FA. His guidebook is still in production but includes at least one area that I've been putting the real info together with the real First Ascentists for at least 5 years before he even came to the area. It has taken me that long (5+ years) because the area holds 100+ boulders and 3+ cliffbands all spread out, and its Original Development team consists of 15+ people, most of whom don't live in the area any more. But that has not stopped me from waiting to attach names and grades to routes and problems without consultation from the Original Gangsters who are still hanging around here. It would have been very easy for myself, and others at certain points in 2001, 2003, 2006 etc... to attach whatever information I wanted to to already organized Guidebook Material...Much like our Hawkeye Jackass has done, which sucks... Its a valid defense to say that one would attach new names and give their subjective grades to routes and boulder problems with no printed material available and very little communication with the initial developers. But if the REAL INFORMATION is being shoved down your throat, the names of the Initial Developers are being given to you and the years of their ascents are being acknowledged, and you still publish misinformation, you are an idiot and you should be condemned and castigated IN PUBLIC! If you are trying to publish a responsible guidebook then you have the responsibility to research the topic to the best of your abilities, and if someone presents to you the real information - you have to make changes. I have email forwarded a link to this forum to the person who is doing this. Hopefully he is getting the message without me naming names. In all honestly I believe this person is attempting to utilize this climbing area and his publishing to it as a shameless source of self-promotion in an egotistical drive to keep pace with a very shallow climbing scene that cares little for history and cares a lot about big number sends and ME first climbing attitudes. The areas first official publication does not need to get wrapped up in some bullshit like that. Its not fair to the area or its Initial Developers. Based on this idiots rational I'm going to go claim the First Ascents for Hood, Thielsen and Rainer this summer. They're going to be all me. I'm renaming them, re-grading em, whos in?

I second that, and i believe shapp is sneaking a shot in at the bolf/ruef Falcon Oregon garbage guide and for that I thank him

southern oregon univ, ashland CA...JK...Ashland, OR they creamed us. The lutes were really good those years...

when I think of climbing porn I think of vids, like what Lowell puts together, and Peter Mortimer, Sender Films, crap you watch at the gym or to get motivated to climb or the mags...Rats and Lice and Criming... thats climbing porn...

Nice, the Lutes. Played football against them in college.

Is he a professor in his field? Obviously he is an archeologist and scholar, does work or has he worked at a University in the past?

Just posing some questions for all cc.comers alike - grizzled veterans and noobs alike- When your willing to throw coin down on written guidebooks to the area/s your climbing what are the essentials for you? * The bare bones? Driving directs, approach trail directs, climbing season, safety considerations and areas of those likes? A name (any name) and relatively close grade on a decently readable topo or photo topo? * Relevant and FACTUAL First Ascent information, dates, names, relative grades; area/s history, culture; style, ethics, tactics; route development considerations, etc? **Bonus Question: If your purchasing a guidebook that has incorrect modern "First Ascent" data including Non-Factual names of routes and problems, inaccurate grades, and little to no acknowledgment of previous developers; does this affect your purchasing decision? Does this affect your impression of its author/s? **Bonus, Bonus Question: If a route goes down in the 1990's and sees repeats every year, or every other year from its inception until 2005/6- What right do new developers have in Re-naming, Re-grading and/or claiming a First Ascent or Modern First Ascent (dis-acknowledging potentially hundreds of ascents between its first and its modern)? I know these are odd questions, and of course they have relevance to a particular issue that has significance to me, but should have relevance to climbers all over. No one is right or wrong in these questions, they are subjective and I can only hope to illicit opinions and share and discuss Opinions, so no one needs to go overboard heated with this have fun

Anyone into the Garden or interested in how folks can put modern names and modern grades on stuff, but maybe just maybe its not too late to get it right- take a scope at the comments of photos and problems here - http://www.mountainproject.com/v/oregon/the_garden/105818193 minutes and here- http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/Oregon/Willamette_Valley/The_Garden/ peace

new forum

Yup. Another poster mentions hating the BD Guide - If he was using a thicker rope (over 10.6) - go reverso instead...

Hokus, For multi pitch trad the reverso is pretty dang nice. Have you tried bring two seconds up at the same time with it in autolocking mode off the anchor? Years ago I took the AMGA's entry guide level course (the TRCSM level) and it had a major emphasis on the Munter Mule Baseline and operations off of it. One point I took away that any and every climber should apply if they are working with a Munter would be a quick lower to an out of reach masterpoint. If your establishing a slingshot or yo yo top-rope and have your master point well below the edge, pre-establishing your rappell to your TR line , then with a long accessory 8 or 9 mil cord tied in above the edge, you can lower yourself on a munter over the edge to your pre-established rap. This is one of many great ways to "managing the edge" with a Munter. Theres a whole ton of uses for the munter but if you do use it a great deal you will find your rope oddly coiling sometimes. I've found this when I have tried to stay exclusive to the Munt for bringing up the second for multiple pitches on a long climb. If the rope is brand new - don't even think about - break it in first, any new munter coiling is easier to deal with after you've had the normal break in of a rope. Used the guide, and R3, haven't tried the B-52. Technically, when you use the Reverso in the Auto-locking mode it is replicating a very old piece of climbing equipment - the Stitcht plate. I would curious if anyone still uses a 60's 70's or older model Stitcht that has comparable results to the Reverso in Stitcht mode. As far as what people should use in comparisons - I think your rope diameter is a big factor. I typically use an 11mm rope and will only go as small as a 10.5 therefore I've found the Reverso good for that size rope. Does anyone out there have feedback in terms of where BD's equivalent, the B-52 etc... in relation to other rope sizes in a Stitcht manner?

Is the "system" the little 3x5 card box with a 3x5 with your name address stapled to the half of the waiver confirming you've signed your life away or did they go digital at some point? Does anyone still have a key to the gate for the top access past the JDean boulder?

Thanks for the update carverbouldering. Because I'm probably not the only person thinking this - how far back are they grandfathering peoples inital membership fee? For example I potentially filled out the form and threw down cash in the late 90's - can i still get a new membership card? Thanks

No fake out - What are they on? As in why would they bolt it! Thats about the most expensive waste of rock I've ever seen. How can they even justify the hardware expensive for a nothing climb? Challenging the bolts at Frenchmans fries is kind of a tough one. There are so many people that go there that to think of the area without bolts now would be kind of tough. It would be like trying to take away the bolted lines at CofR and still expect to have a good weekend not elbow to elbow in line.

In the two photos ya got here all red circled up - I recognize the top reddish rock photo - Where is the second photo from with the bolts on either side of the corner? 2nd to some of the garbage I've seen with plastic climbing holds bolted to real rock your little spire there is as bad as it gets! Where is that and what are those people on?

Because these topic threads are too often muddled when folks companion private mesage to their posts, I'll just answer your question here cause this topic is obviously hiiiiiiiiijjjjjjjaaaaacked.... crimper, I was in no way identifying what you did as "wrong" or irresponsible - i was simply trying to use the case scenario at dropzone to potentially get at the heart of the problem with retro - bolting - If initial developers of bolt-less or minimally bolted climbing routes keep their areas quiet, choosing not to "...ma(k)e it clear to a new generation of climbers..." you can't really blame or be upset with the retro-bolter. How would they have known? crimper - when you added bolts to the line in question at dropzone, whether you knew the line went bolt-less or not is irrelevant, because the next guy to come along that didn't know whether the route had been climbed or not WILL put the bolt in. If it wasn't you it might be someone less informed of the areas ethics, styles and tactics. But if the information about the route was out there and your bolts still went in - that is a true "convenience" scenario. The bolting on Fred and Azian doesn't even fall into the "convenience" category or even opening the lines up to more people. If you are making initial VHard moves of Fred the 5.easy topout shouldn't be something you need bolts for. Azian - same situation - if you just made the 5.8 move without a bolt, why do you need one for the 5.6 that follows. And regardless of a highball/solo on Azian, the line takes cams and nuts. These bolts don't even make sense and it stinks of " I put a bolt in so others know I was there" which is irresponsible. Because this completely hijacked thread will never go anywhere for the same old reasons - i'll just conclude things with - I don't blame those that put new bolts on Big Fred and Azian Boulder. There was no reason for them to know because no guide exists and its history has gone unreported. But the bolts will be removed, and you should know why - so you can get your hardware back if you no longer want to contribute it towards top anchors elsewhere in the area:)

Don't post. The topic doesn't concern you. You know what is going to happen when you post, so stop trolling. If the area is not relevant to you, and you have nothing to say in regard to whether retro-bolting of establish routes - THEN DON'T POST.

I'll say it again: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU! On behalf of myself, the initial developers of these particular boulders, and other climbers who go to this area and who have been outraged by these new bolts I am making an effort to track down the person who added these bolts and correct the problem. When I chop them it will be no mystery because I am putting this out there. I don't care to make a "profit" in any climbing endeavor. I have thrown thousands of dollars towards the production of climbing guidebooks and I have distributed this material because I care about the activity and the people that partake, not because I will ever recoup the hours and ink cartridges that have stacked up in a decade. At least my bitching at someone errantly placing bolts is something that has to do with me because I'm the one calling it out and swinging the crowbar. You are bitching - and this doesn't even have effect for you, you have nothing to do with it! I've lost the pure essence of climbing - Bullshit - If I am one of the few that gives a shit to see unneeded, obtrusive bolts where they shouldn't be. Re-establishing the Azian Crack the way it was in the late 90's when it was first climbed - boltelss- I'm trying to tap back into the essence of real climbing not "convenience climbing". If you have no regard for those that came before you and climbed with bolts for a very very long period of time - why - my assumption is your the same kind of developer who can't feel like a route has seen "your" ascent if it hasn't seen "your" bolt. If you didn't place the bolts, and aren't even bringing an opinion or more information in regard to the area - don't post- go talk more about your aid lines and leave other peoples topics alone - Case in point - I was there yesterday, spoke to some folks, found out where the bolter is from and found out that he rarely if ever returns. His friend, who I met, identified it as a boner mistake that He (bolters buddy that I met) told Mystery Bolter that he was wrong and if he kept it up there would be consequences. I did not start this thread to bitch and call out. Getting in touch with a newer generation of visitors to this area in conjunction with communication with the initial developers to the area is important steps for me before I turn them fixe five pieces into top-rope bolts elsewhere. If I said nothing, chopped, then dealt with the repercussions - I'm part of the problem, not a solution... P.S. corvallisclimb just so understand - you are not the foremost authority on what is relevant to "Oregon Climbing". You are just ONE climber, get over yourself.

then don't participate in the thread. it has nothiing to do with you right? its not a climbing area of interest or pertinance. You think maybe you could just move on from it, or does its mere presence bother you? I ignore threads all the time. I don't muck with and completely ignore your "pinnacle" threads all the time because it doesn't stoke me. I don't need to make a big deal to you about how they bore me and how I don't feel they have their place - I leave it and ignore it. Try it Climbing content that will be gained from me will be in guidebook form for a number of areas that up until this point cannot be featured on a website like this so, as far as "contributing content" - pm me, i trade content with people all the time, on a private basis because of where i climb just got back from climbing with my daughter. Will probably put some stoke up - but everyone on this website is anti-bouldering so you can't please everybody i guess...

Hitting nail on head! The gift and the curse of oregon crags - you want the things to be established and stay clean, but you want it for yourself For a very different crag this has been my swan song for what feels like a very long time now...mooooooojjjjjaccccckkkk.... So post blow-up analysis of that whole Farside/Dropzone mess relevant to the argument- Was it made clear to a new generation of climbers that the line (and others like it) had been climbed without the "new" crimper(username) bolts?

They are there. Whoever put them there knows what they are looking at. When your walking the shiny stuff starts meeting you at basketball hoop height instead of humbly tucked away at the top of the band, out of site of non-climbers... Resolution is jacked, i know. I literally had to scan a copy of a photo because i could not make a .png get small enough. had to settle for the scans...

Billcoe you have inspired me to get off others threads and go out on limb. Thanks for clarifying that elgin had a bolt in 76 in the thread Public Notice, billcoe. You won't find beef with me for bolts like that, bolting situations like the historic and retrobolted "convenience bolts" for example: trout creek, meadow camp and maria lane boulders sisters come to mind> All(most) are top-rope applications that beyond saving potential injury for many a new climber in many situations, and all are saving the lives of very sensitive trees in the high desert - all good reasons to bolt sparingly. Beyond these quality reasons for having tr/rap bolts these particular situations have potentially prevented modern yahoos from showing up and putting the kind of new lead bolts that are the case in point of a more relevant thread to bolting - seperate from the Ozone/DropZone/Farside Shenanigans - but probably pertinent to the issues of whether areas that have been climbed non-bolted deserve new bolts if it opens things up for a new generation - FRANCOIS !!!! I'm going at on a limb both posting a photo of a boulder (most on this thread seem a little anti pebble-tugging) and i'm going out on a limb posting on an area that is supposed to be relatively hush hush. But, I was pretty pissed off when I saw new lead bolts on highball boulder problems I used to both solo and top-rope, and then to find out that the intial developer sender the problem was also beyond frustrated that someone would add a new bolt where he and others were going ropeless for over a decade - The gray area associated to what is a highball boulder, what is a solo, what is adequate to have simply top rope/rap bolts, what deserves lead bolts etc... While I bring this post up because I really am interested in finding out WHO RETROBOLTED BIG FRED BOULDER - NEW LEAD BOLTS ON FRANCOIS, FRED and worse than that WHO RETROBOLTED AZIAN CRACK (On Hula Boulder opposite big fred) Even I, the wussiest soloist in the world was doing this 5.7 on gear/run it out in my first year of climbing sans new bolts. Retro-bolting this line is tantamount to adding new bolts to the Hyrdotube and with all due respect to the the Inital Developer of the Big Fred Boulder I am actually a bit more pissed that Hula boulders has lead bolts. To put new top-rope bolts would be absolutely reasonable, and is in order with a lot of available lines, but THESE (Azians) lead bolts are an absolute travesty and no one can convince me they should be left there. Why bring this rant on bolting at a ho hum crag - Because it should not continue. Bolting there should, but not the way its going down - on lines that have been well established and repeated year in and year out likely before the Mystery Bolter was even in climbing. This person has made a huge error but it can be rectified - bolt movement anyone? Let the Flaming begin...

Elitist ownership of public land. And its not just as elitist to bolt a line thus setting a sport precedence before all boltless trad applications have been exhausted? Its ok because more people clip bolts and there is safety in that mass of humanity huh? Why do trad applications have to come first? Because there is already an F-Load of Sport Climbing Crags. Everywhere. In every state. You do not have to look very hard or drive very far to find sport climbing if there is climbing to be had. Trad, and especially Bolt-less trad is very difficult to find because everybody goes around turning them into sport crags. I'm not saying all crags should go boltless. I have bolted in the past and will bolt a bunch in the near and bright future, but if there is an opportunity for boltless climbing, even if it means making a potential 100 route area, a a 70 - 80 route bolt-less area, take the opportunity to find out what bolt -less trad is all about> add some variety to the mix. If ozone is right there whats so wrong with having Dropzone be its boltless companion? Couldn't Spring have been a great destination with only the crack climbs involved? Doesn't Elgin have the potential to be crack climbing only if the right people had there hands on it? And with all this stuff, it shouldn't just be about what land management policies are in place. The truth of the situation is climbers are self-policing and bolt in wilderness areas all the time, so why would it be so bad to not bolt in a place where you technically can?