Checat

Maybe I'm just whistling dixie, but I actually have faith that other areas that are discovered and rediscovered over the next ten years will have developers more conscious of quality bolt usage, and bolt omision when the potential is there. How that new awareness comes about is beyond me though.

I know, I'm trying to shake off this zero bolts MO. I do climb at other areas; the area I really give a crap about happens to be no bolts is all.

This bolted crack has otherwise available pro. Fill em. "Practice"? If you wanna climb walls go climb walls. If you wanna climb a crack thats been led without any bolts, lead it on gear or don't climb it, climb something else. I thought Rat cave was nothing but steep sport climbs? didn't realize there were crack lines, go figure. Oh yeah, and another note on what was earlier brushed on in regard to holes for removable bolts/unsustainable bolts on the beach: Does anyone actively climb those rust-fest bolted lines up the larger formations at Bandon Beach Bouldering/Needles? From what I understand the Access Fund is pretty Madrone focused, but it really does present an eyesore and it didn't seem like the lines were active, (*the bouldering is better). Other than at one place in particular I'm not really ready for the chopchopchop but it seems like if climbers aren't really using them, theres no reason for them to continue and stain the rock that they're on. I would bring this to that retro-bolt suggestion/neccesary thread but I don't think people care much about these climbs and wouldn't really deserve more time/financial commitment? I'm not trying to spray about the area (head south to LR, Cali to take the quantity up), but noticed that it was an extremely active beach and its not the best thing to bring climbers a bad name in one of the very few coastal Oregon areas. thoughts?

While camoflauge(sp.) colored hangers came and went in their popularity (late 80's early 90's), with all the new technologies in metals, paints etc... I'm curious why bolt and hangar companies are pretty content with the flashy stain-steel look and you don't see the kind of off tan, basalt grey and light granite hangars you saw at some crags back in the day. I imagine that, as these weren't that popular then, and haven't really been popular for awhile, that with weather factors and upgraded rebolting efforts - there aren't a ton of those things out on the rock anymore? I think a noticed a few at smiff the last time I was out there but most people are pretty stoked on the glinting steel Any paint will eventually weather away so Joseph, start changing your entreuprenureal(sp.) efforts away from strobe lighting hangers, to those where the metal itself has been tempered to match the color of the rock! Oh yeah and corvallisclimb, you are right about the current Removable Bolt technology getting stuck when a decent fall is taken. My only experiences climbing on them were in "no falls", moderate difficulty (.10 and under) scenarios because the rock I was placing RB's in was heavily weathered sandstone that saw as much weatherization as the bolt and hangars that had been removed couldn't handle over a few seasons (the ocean is nasty after all). You could open up the Removable Bolt experience to more difficult terrain and comfortably take falls (maybe getting them out lol) on better rock, but you guys are right about not being able to see a simple hole. The point of this effort for the sake of non-climbers would make for a problem for climbers: low visibility.

No phobias. Time and place for everything. You say silly, fair enough, it is kind of an interesting experience though. Come to Norcal, you gotta find a local who's actually made the investment in those suckers cause there not cheap and there are multiple sizes of holes (keep it clean), so you not only just have to rack up with a set of these suckers, but you have to have a fair number of different sized Removable Bolts. If it meant more non-climbers who have to sign off on our activities and the impact we have seeing us as reasonably unobtrusive I don't think its that much more of an expense both financially and physically. It only seems "silly" to you because of the proliferation of bolts and the instant mental linkage "most" climbers associate to climbing. Climbing = Bolts is the common gym model, for those who came into climbing through the gym experience, this is the tantamount attitude... Thanks for saying I'm not a "dick about it" considering how many people on this sight are "dicks" about their attitudes concerning the benign act of climbing on rocks. If I ever take an extreme attitude against bolts and towards clean climbing it is because the one place that I've come upon in career is always at threat to bolting. P.S. Sorry for large post, just got back from cleaning routes there so I'm amped.

corvallisclimb i don't think this guy's(hansen something) would care to develop a bolted line in any way shape or form. His website is completely abject to all bolts. but i don't think he is invalidating the difficulty of bolt on lead, bolt on hooks etc... this guy's purely focused on the base argument of visual aesthetic to the rock. His stuff doesn't come from the "bolt-less" is that much more elitist (i.e. difficult) attitude. I think he simply views climbing as something that shouldn't have bolts at all. He wouldn't care to even understand the differences in bolting styles and bolting ethics. He throws the whole idea out from the onset... Who knows if he's even a climber. He would have to make the argument that he's freaky solo like a champ if he believes that there shouldn't be bolts at all.

not necessarily specific to the ocean> it has been implemented there, I was saying "what if you applied this ethic to all bolted areas", drank the kool-aid with this guy and pulled all hangers and bolts: imagine a rack with 10+ (however many the route requires whatever you need) removable bolts, concurrent rack of quickdraws, your still sport climbing, your still just clipping bolts; you just bring the bolts to the party. I propose this because the guy presenting this website seems to be more on an environmental aesthetic focus. a hole with nothing around (other than maybe other older holes like at smith) without the hanger is much less unsightly than bright shiny bolts. More of an investment into the sport financially, not much more of an investment to actually apply the removable bolt physically during the climb. Its not like picking between cams on steepness or pulling out a set of nuts, the RB's are a simple extra step, but an extra step nevertheless in the leading process.

I'm not huge on clipping bolts and I agree with you JosephH, it is going to be tough to stick with this all or nothing attitude. However, I was giving his ideas a thought a couple months ago and would have contributed this concept to his site if it was a little more interactive: When I lived in Southern Oregon I would visit larger coast formations where bolts would have to be replaced year to 1/2 yearly because of the effects of the ocean. Most routes at some point would lose their bolts and hangers, leaving simply the holes to plug in one of those removable bolts http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/Detailed/449.html (liberty mountain, i don't believe is the only people making these) So few people carry 1 or 2 of these, let alone a rack of 12+ to fill the void for normal hangers. Replacing all present bolts and hangars with the hole that they have already made and using a rack of this combined with a rack of draws at all sport crags is right in line with what this guy wants though, and would definitely make strides towards bring back an aesthetic quality.

Thesis, diatribe, philosophy - Call it what you will, has anyone else checked out this website? It links from Wikipedia's definition of trad climbing (which does a decent job of tackling that one without tripping over itself). http://climbingbolts.wordpress.com/ While I may be a fan I don't know if this guy will get much of a following behind his movement. Seems like, even with all the pooh-slinging, people tend to enjoy bolting debates around here...

This topic came up a couple years ago on this website. I thought the determination was that it referred to a retaining wall northwest of Salem, with notched, epoxied, naturalistic "holds" in the retaining wall/Dam? Who knows there's so many "secret crags" out there, maybe its held the test of time? If you don't get oak come to the garden. That stuff has areas still to be found and its been re-discovered every couple years since the late 80's. I met a couple guys there in 04 who climbed at the Courthouse Indoor gym in Salem. They were pretty bouldering focused and they said they never found Toula's Rock and Road "Salem Boulders", is that the reference you are going off of?

One wood sign leads to another, and then before you know it you have the kind of situation they have at the callahans (wood signs with formation name in front of every formation), which I think is kind of cheesy... Disneyfication...

Then you should appreciate people like me actually presenting a counterpoint to bolted crags. Now your the one not making sense. You want diversity in areas but you don't want someone like me taking a strong stance and presenting an alternative ethic...

I guess I'll have to do this point by point: *Climbing guidebooks are rarely a money making endeavor and as far as my project goes any revenue made: ever, would never match up to residual costs that I've incurred over the years in putting it together. My aim in developing it and presenting it to the public has more to do with my desire to share it and the ethics/styles/practices that it embodies because I don't believe it should be so one of a kind. "A strong and benevolent impulse to share motivates many clubs and individuals - including guidebook writers- to advertise access to the hidden places of the backcountry. Sharing is a generous quality. We love to share the wilderness world. What is difficult, but maybe not impossible, is both to share and to preserve." Wilderness Ethics, Laura and Guy Waterman * It is not the CONSENSUS of those that climb there that a guidebook not exist. It is merely the two most important members of that cohort that believe a guidebook shouldn't exist at this time. There are those that agree with me in that the place has a better likelihood of remaining boltless with a guidebook in place, and there are those that simply want a record of their accomplishments (because sans bolts, no evidence remains). *If you hadn't noticed, I started another thread about areas that have "good" bolts. The point I've tried to make from the beginning is that NOT ALL CRAGS SHOULD HAVE bolts... But if future developers don't have a model to work off of, it is unlikely that this ethic will occur to them out of a vacuum...

I had to knock loose some cob-webs on this one, but your right, there atypical for tvedt routes. And ironically the only gear right there I think was put up by them...

True, true... As I said in numerous posts on the other thread Bolts=subjective, No Bolts=Objective I guess I'm trying to apply the hypothesis that the people who have been posting on these discussions are experienced climbers who have traveled around and witnessed first hand minimalist bolting practices...

For all you spray-lords that I effectively p-ed off with the last thread I started, a show of good-will of sorts: I'll kick it off with some of the places I first ventured to, which is probably why I have a high expectation for bolt discretion: *Rattlesnake Crag (mad props to Davis, Messinger, Chavez etc...) *Carver (routes with mixed pro: bolts and gear can be really cool) *Wolf Rock (If you haven't climbed there - GO!

It was probably a couple years back but the REI in Eugene had them putting on clinics. I was always under the impression they bolted so that there children could lead what they were, and thats the way it should be after all: we should be able to customize every crag to fit our needs right? The last time I visited F-stone there was a particular Fralick route that had yet to be retro-bolted. That remains my 2nd favorite climb (Ain't no Disco is sick!) out there (for the moves, not just the distance between bolts). I've heard the argument before "...you don't have to clip the new bolts, you can skip the ones you want...". It doesn't seem like it should be that way though...

And to think, they are heralded as local legends around eugene...I guess its an accomplishment to develop routes for pre-teens, the elderly and the incompetent.

I do, where all the numbers are coded, and you have eat three boxes of cracker-jacks and send it in for the decoder ring (or look at a map of the area and start trying different combinations) you can solve the puzzle. Its kinda funny because its a whole lot easier to look at a map and make some inferences...but its much funner to pretend to be some kind of secret agent thats been given a coded message...

areas of smith... probably in distinct correlation with the period of climbing in which a particular area was developed...

I was never "brought" there. I had to find the place for myself based on contextual clues. My relationship with the area developed without any knowledge or acceptance by the initial developers. i started communicating with them 3-6 months after I was already regularly frequenting the crag.

Some of the formations at the Callahans...not all. I believe this has a lot to do with the fact that many over-bolted lines at the Callahans were developed by the same people that over-bolted at flagstone. Last name starts and ends with a T... Same thing at Hills Creek Spires...

I am a little confused on what you mean by "keep on chimneys", are you talking about chimney climbs out there. Plummer's crack is all mike...

You know what? Your right! I need to do a better job of contributing to that someone elses pipedream and quit making it my own. I guess I am a little frustrated that I am no longer their go to communique....and I don't think it has only to do with being geographically located an hour too far north...

My first quote was in reference to the Lack, and it won't remain bolt free because I said so, but because of the consensus of all that currently go there. Second quote had to do with an area that already has bolts and has been bolted for years... That should be clarified